Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

zoiDman

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... Open systems are over. Flavors don't even matter because that will be at the discretion of whoever bought their approved PMTA, and if you don't like the flavor profile they got through, take a walk.

Not only are B&M stores gone, but online vendors dependent on commercial juice sales are gone as commercial juice manufacturers won't even exist. ...

...

Time for a Reality Check.

Haven't the Core Contributors of this Thread, and many of who View it, have known this since Deeming was Finalized? I mean, God Knows it's only been said about 10,000 Times.

What Isn't known is what is going to happen in the SE Market. Or even, 1/16 Glass Full, the MRT Market.

There is NO WAY Flavors are going to make it on a what We refer to as a "Closed System" today. But you're a Smart Person, can you Think Up a way, No Matter How Inconvenient by Today's standards, that a Truly Non-Refillable Pod could be Paired to a Adult Verified Mod and that Only Works with That Mod?

I'm sure I can. Just like Many Other here Can.

That's how Flavors could Return/Stay in the Market. And that is what my Glass 1/8 Full Outlook was more about.

Not that I think Open Systems and e-Liquid Companies can somehow get off The Green Mile.
 

Eskie

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Time for a Reality Check.

Haven't the Core Contributors of this Thread, and many of who View it, have known this since Deeming was Finalized? I mean, God Knows it's only been said about 10,000 Times.

What Isn't known is what is going to happen in the SE Market. Or even, 1/16 Glass Full, the MRT Market.

There is NO WAY Flavors are going to make it on a what We refer to as a "Closed System" today. But you're a Smart Person, can you Think Up a way, No Matter How Inconvenient by Today's standards, that a Truly Non-Refillable Pod could be Paired to a Adult Verified Mod and that Only Works with That Mod?

I'm sure I can. Just like Many Other here Can.

That's how Flavors could Return/Stay in the Market. And that is what my Glass 1/8 Full Outlook was more about.

Not that I think Open Systems and e-Liquid Companies can somehow get off The Green Mile.

it's why we've seen companies releasing plastic tanks with integrated coils and a 510 connection with the hope that might get through. Nothing to tamper with. Add it to mod/"batteries", as seem to be the way the FDA looks at the mod, will be a sealed battery of whatever chemistry that is not user accessible. Round that out by how you can show performance safety of a given plastic tank with a given mod any user selects to buy, without using the mod you designed the tank to work with, regardless of a "standard" 510 connection.

But the onus is now to show not only the tanks are safe, but how you can assure what will go in them that will perform according to specs, not just intrinsic to the tank/coil, like temperature, but the burden of how they can control what the end user places IN the tank. That's an impossible obstacle right there.

Next step is for a juice manufacturer to file a PMTA which may encompass different nic concentrations without a separate application for each (yay!), but even if made off the master ingredient list, if nothing will approved that can be user filled, legitimately, not a hack of a pod, why make it?

Each individual product class review sounds almost reasonable and achievable (albeit expensively), until you realize none will work together for a seamless user experience. You can't provide data on an emission if you don't know what liquids are approved, and you're not getting a liquid approved when you don't even know if there will be anything approved to fill it with. It's a classic government catch 22. Sure, you can litigate it all over again, but now you're going up against a public increasingly battered with negative media and photos of kids on ventilators holding up signs saying "Don't Vape". The court of public opinion does affect the court of judiciary despite any claims of blindness to influence beyond the law. And vape businesses pockets are running low on funding endless lawsuits and injunctions. In the absence of a major infusion of money solely for litigation and PR and lobbyists, the vaping industry has already put up a good fight and run through most of its war chest. I can't see a practical realistic path around it no matter how creative the ideas may be.

The biggest obstacle remains the FDA deeming regs. But as the states shut down business after business with ridiculous emergency executive decrees, who's left to challenge the deeming regs too? I don't think anyone saw the individual state actions as becoming so aggressive, and all efforts were directed on the federal level. But the state orders are creating a situation where the FDA's job come May will be pretty simple as no one is left to argue with it.
 

AttyPops

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Is that like a truly non-refillable printer-ink cartridge? ;)
Yeah. ;)

But just think of the recycling benefits when we hack em! I mean, hell, if they think they have a problem with cig-butts now, just wait until users throw out the whole pod/coil and all, since it's a use-once device! Just think of all the GHG needed to produce all that.

Maybe we can sick Gretta on em.
 
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zoiDman

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Is that like a truly non-refillable printer-ink cartridge? ;)

The Problem with that Parallel is Printer OEM's are right up on the Legal Edge of how much they can Stop a Printer Owner from not using a Refillable Print Cartridge.

I think it was HP (maybe Epson?) that got Sued in Europe years ago over Printers not working with Non-HP Print Cartridges. And the Court(s) ruled that HP Didn't Disclose or Advertise that their Printers would Only Working with OEM Cartridges.

e-Cigarettes Aren't going to be under any Legal Constraint. In Fact, the More Difficult the can Make it, the More the FDA is going to Smile.

And I have No Doubt that BT can Make it Almost Impossible for just about Anyone to get around Pod/Mod pairing.
 

zoiDman

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it's why we've seen companies releasing plastic tanks with integrated coils and a 510 connection with the hope that might get through. Nothing to tamper with. Add it to mod/"batteries", as seem to be the way the FDA looks at the mod, will be a sealed battery of whatever chemistry that is not user accessible. Round that out by how you can show performance safety of a given plastic tank with a given mod any user selects to buy, without using the mod you designed the tank to work with, regardless of a "standard" 510 connection.

But the onus is now to show not only the tanks are safe, but how you can assure what will go in them that will perform according to specs, not just intrinsic to the tank/coil, like temperature, but the burden of how they can control what the end user places IN the tank. That's an impossible obstacle right there.

Next step is for a juice manufacturer to file a PMTA which may encompass different nic concentrations without a separate application for each (yay!), but even if made off the master ingredient list, if nothing will approved that can be user filled, legitimately, not a hack of a pod, why make it?

Each individual product class review sounds almost reasonable and achievable (albeit expensively), until you realize none will work together for a seamless user experience. You can't provide data on an emission if you don't know what liquids are approved, and you're not getting a liquid approved when you don't even know if there will be anything approved to fill it with. It's a classic government catch 22. Sure, you can litigate it all over again, but now you're going up against a public increasingly battered with negative media and photos of kids on ventilators holding up signs saying "Don't Vape". The court of public opinion does affect the court of judiciary despite any claims of blindness to influence beyond the law. And vape businesses pockets are running low on funding endless lawsuits and injunctions. In the absence of a major infusion of money solely for litigation and PR and lobbyists, the vaping industry has already put up a good fight and run through most of its war chest. I can't see a practical realistic path around it no matter how creative the ideas may be.

The biggest obstacle remains the FDA deeming regs. But as the states shut down business after business with ridiculous emergency executive decrees, who's left to challenge the deeming regs too? I don't think anyone saw the individual state actions as becoming so aggressive, and all efforts were directed on the federal level. But the state orders are creating a situation where the FDA's job come May will be pretty simple as no one is left to argue with it.

JMO...

But I believe that a Successful PMTA is going to have to Satisfy these Main Parameters.

The Pod Must be Truly Non-Fillable or User Modifiable.
The Pod(s) is going to have to be Paired (via a Chip) to a MOD.
The Mod is going to have to be Adult Verified.

Yeah... There is going bunch of Other Stuff like Limits on mg/ml. Or User Non-Override able TC. etc. But the Basics are going to be Non-Refillable Pods paired to an Adult Verified Mod.

That is How they will give the FDA the Ability to say that they are Keeping e-Cigarettes out of Teens Hands. And it will Allow the CDC to Lower the Teens Use Percentages to prove it.

Then they can Tax the Living Snit out of it.
 

englishmick

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BTW - I think the "We the People" petition numbers has taken the White House by surprise also.

Probably. However the other side would be able to mount a pretty formidable "We the People" attack themselves if Trump started to waver. And theirs would be backed by corporations and vote counters. I doubt Trump has an opinion either way, his decisions appear to be mostly driven by 2020 considerations. What do his base and his corporate donors think. And he appears to have a cadre of outside friends who can call and speak to him regularly. If any of them were pro-vaping it could make a difference.
 
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Rossum

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But I believe that a Successful PMTA is going to have to Satisfy these Main Parameters.

The Pod Must be Truly Non-Fillable or User Modifiable.
The Pod(s) is going to have to be Paired (via a Chip) to a MOD.
The Mod is going to have to be Adult Verified.
I can't think of a single product currently on the market that satisfies these requirements.
 

englishmick

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JMO...

But I believe that a Successful PMTA is going to have to Satisfy these Main Parameters.

The Pod Must be Truly Non-Fillable or User Modifiable.
The Pod(s) is going to have to be Paired (via a Chip) to a MOD.
The Mod is going to have to be Adult Verified.

Yeah... There is going bunch of Other Stuff like Limits on mg/ml. Or User Non-Override able TC. etc. But the Basics are going to be Non-Refillable Pods paired to an Adult Verified Mod.

That is How they will give the FDA the Ability to say that they are Keeping e-Cigarettes out of Teens Hands. And it will Allow the CDC to Lower the Teens Use Percentages to prove it.

Then they can Tax the Living Snit out of it.

Sounds like a pretty good summary of what we can expect. Make "legal" vaping gear so expensive and crappy that nobody will want to use it. These guys are just too smart for us.

This isn't due until next year. Who knows. Maybe this current wave of bans coming 6 months ahead of the FDA date will be enough of a disaster to make them reconsider.
 

Rossum

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Maybe this current wave of bans coming 6 months ahead of the FDA date will be enough of a disaster to make them reconsider.
We can hope, but I sure wouldn't count in it. The Deeming Regs have been in the works for 5-1/2 years now; first formally proposed in the Spring of 2014, finalized in mid 2016, and originally intended to be fully implemented/enforced by August of 2018. Nothing really substantial has changed between the original proposal and what's now scheduled to happen in May of 2020. Bureaucracy does not move quickly, but once it gets moving, it has a lot of momentum.
 

zoiDman

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Probably. However the other side would be able to mount a pretty formidable "We the People" attack themselves if Trump started to waver. And theirs would be backed by corporations and vote counters. I doubt Trump has an opinion either way, his decisions appear to be mostly driven by 2020 considerations. What do his base and his corporate donors think. And he appears to have a cadre of outside friends who can call and speak to him regularly. If any of them were pro-vaping it could make a difference.

I Don't think it is so Much an Issue of Amount. As it is How Quickly the Numbers got to 100K. That tells Politicians that this is a Very Important Issue to those who Signed.

So you Worry about those Vapers who Don't Normally Vote in Swing States that you Need.

What you Fear is that what you Just Did will get them Up Off their Azzes and Vote. And when they Do Vote, it is going to be for the Other Person. Even though Voting for the Other Person might be Worse for Vaping.
 

zoiDman

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I can't think of a single product currently on the market that satisfies these requirements.

If there was, Nobody would Buy It.

:lol:

That Product ONLY Works when there are No Other or No Better Products that can be Legally Sold.

:lol: :lol:
 

mikepetro

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I can't think of a single product currently on the market that satisfies these requirements.
True, but if thats all that will pass the FDA minimum bar, then you can bet BT will come up with it. If they dont already have it on the books. Technologically I can think of ways to do it (bluetooth pairingof the pod/mod and an adult verification process of the mod itself), it would make the devices more expensive, but if you are the only kid on the block then it doesnt really matter.
 

Rossum

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True, but if thats all that will pass the FDA minimum bar, then you can bet BT will come up with it. If they dont already have it on the books. Technologically I can think of ways to do it (bluetooth pairingof the pod/mod and an adult verification process of the mod itself), it would make the devices more expensive, but if you are the only kid on the block then it doesnt really matter.
If I were designing it, I'd require the device be paired to the user's cell phone via BT (relatively short range) and the verification would take place via an app on his phone. This would not be terribly expensive.
 

Dr. Seuss

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They know every damn chemical inside and out. And probably all the effects, billions of combinations of effects I'm sure.

They've been at this well over 70 years with teams of scientists.
I always find it interesting when I look up a drug and it has listed “mechanism of action - unknown”. So they’re making, marketing and selling a drug that, who knows how it works bruh, it just does it’s thing, who are we to judge..?
 

AttyPops

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I always find it interesting when I look up a drug and it has listed “mechanism of action - unknown”. So they’re making, marketing and selling a drug that, who knows how it works bruh, it just does it’s thing, who are we to judge..?
Yeah, that's fair. I mean, with 7000 chemicals, it's hard to know EVERY interaction. It's like trying to resolve quantum mechanics and particle physics.

But still, they're pretty on top of it (the tobacco part, not the physics).
 
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CMD-Ky

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Otherwise known as "Medicare for none". :)

Given my highly unacceptable political leanings, my advanced age and my fairly well controlled but expensive terminal illness, my thoughts on "Medicare for All" is that it is merely a protracted and uncomfortable death sentence.
 

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