Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[zoiDman]

What does Math, or even reasonable Accounting, have to do with Any of this?

If it Did, why would States have Leveraged their MSA Payments for 35 Cents on the Dollar?

Or State/Cities raising the Tax on Cigarettes to the Point where they are Actually taking in Less because cheaper Non-Taxed Grey and Back Market Cigarettes come flooding in?

Politicians Don't care about Math. Unless the Math is counting How Much they can Raise for the Next Election. Or How Much it is going to cost you to wage a Zero Sum campaign on some Particular Issue/Opponent.

 

[AttyPops]

Yeah, and it's not the only thing. I mean there is "save the children" in a sense, but the rub is that it won't be with banning flavors.

Some of this is social engineering, IMO. From FSC to "sin taxes" to making cigs worse, to just ANTZ, and lawsuits. Social conventions have changed. It's everything. All at once.

And sin taxes have a huge cost particularly to the less-well-off. Further, all our healthcare costs are increased, so we all pay indirectly.

At least that's the logic. I think. It's a bit of a slippery slope, but smoking and tobacco use are the easiest (and most logical) first/largest targets. And they're a cash-cow for the HC system to in a way. Notice how everything is "smoking related"?

But really, it's a pretty bad habit. That's why we're all here on ECF, because we're trying to address it too.

I still thing that our current mainstream open system e-cigs are being thrown under the bus to make a deal. OTOH, we may have screw ourselves if our industry didn't support American BT as a nic source, because if we're funneling money to...say...India or other-country-not-BT-controlled tobacco, it's a loss for the domestic tobacco industry.

It's gotta be everything, all at once. Life in the fast lane "Everything, all the time" but with accounting.

 

[AttyPops]

What does Math, or even reasonable Accounting, have to do with Any of this?

If it Did, why would States have Leveraged their MSA Payments for 35 Cents on the Dollar?

Or State/Cities raising the Tax on Cigarettes to the Point where they are Actually taking in Less because cheaper Non-Taxed Grey and Back Market Cigarettes come flooding in?

Politicians Don't care about Math. Unless the Math is counting How Much they can Raise for the Next Election. Or How Much it is going to cost you to wage a Zero Sum campaign on some Particular Issue/Opponent.

Wow. So you're even more pessimistic than me in a way. You could just say "we're doomed".

 

[AttyPops]

A lot of sick smokers are older and on Medicare. We pay for Medicare from what they take out of our paycheck. Medicaid not so much. Working folks with insurance pay themselves.

Long term care (like nursing homes) isn't paid by medicare...it ends up being medicaid.
Then there's costs for businesses (employer's share) of mainstream stuff. And pay what? The cost side is higher. There's a reason insurance companies deal with preventative measures...they're cheaper to do than wait and let a problem get worse.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

And who knows? Maybe it's just BT's clout. Like I've said 100 times...what drug dealer doesn't want to control the market?

 

[zoiDman]

Wow. So you're even more pessimistic than me in a way. You could just say "we're doomed".

It's just when we are 22T (that's Trillion with a "T") in the Hole, and All I hear on the News is Candidates coming up with a New Spending Programs almost Daily, I kinda Laugh when people talk about how/what we should be spending or using Money for.

The Answer is Simple... Spend More!

And when someone asks on what? That's Easy... On Everything and Anything !

LOL

 

[mikepetro]

Keep calm and vape on: UK embraces e-cigarettes

 

[AttyPops]

27 / 29
Editorial cartoons for Sept. 29, 2019
Scott Stantis | Tribune Content Agency
https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2...-2019-trump-impeachment-climate-protests.html

 

[stols001]

I've been musing on this (a lot) and I'm sure I have missed a lot. The price of vaping is not substantially equivalent to the price of cigarettes, and it's part of the he appeal. However, I don't know how many vapers would accept the price of vaping if it were taxed, dollar for dollar, exactly similar to smoking.

If there are no vape bans, well, vaping will not be prized enough to pay THAT. Also, getting cheap vape equipment into the country would be just entirely easy unless "selling it" and etc. was not a crime etc.

So, in order to make the idea of the type of tax needed to sustain the state's need for funds which they are losing out on, perhaps they think a ban for a while will make vapers more willing to accept oh, a 250% markup on their gear.

Hence it has been with the great marijuana, and the states are LOVING it. They are raking in money hand over fist, because the damn stuff has been illegal, annoying to get, and somewhat dangerous for a LONG while. So, marijuana smokers are willing to pay a premium to obtain a good product (MOSTLY I guess) and to pay a great deal for it. It's also usually better quality.

If vaping goes dark, taxation suddenly becomes way more palatable.

Last I read, people were talking voting. To the best of my knowledge, Bernie Sanders supports vaping with NO regulation and equally so with marijuana.

I mean, it's the MUPPET, and seriously he could die in office, and there are for sure some things I don't like about the Muppet, but if he has the same running mate as LAST time (I forget his name) but I watched the debate (only it was more of an interview IIRC on CNN at like 10:37 on a Friday evening and they did not even have Anderson Robot asking the questions, it was like his human substitute, but well that guy was THE BOMB. I would vote for that dude OVER Bernie, he seemed to be this magical optical illusion of a politician who actually listened to the question, did not vaguely rant on about his "target message" relentlessly and also his answers were clear, concise and to the point.

But yeah if you are a single issue voter, there you go. I have to switch my driver's license and that means I HAVE to go to the MVA and register to vote.

Right now my status at the MVA is listed as "registered." But, I am NOT actually registered, although I did bring my naturalization certificate to all agencies except the MVA because I lost my epi pen and it causes like, anaphylaxis.

You can bet, in Pima Co, my vote is being counted by the democrats right now so I really need to do it. Voter fraud is real. I am 100% convinced I am being defrauded.

Anna

 

[YoursTruli]

I've been musing on this (a lot) and I'm sure I have missed a lot. The price of vaping is not substantially equivalent to the price of cigarettes, and it's part of the he appeal. However, I don't know how many vapers would accept the price of vaping if it were taxed, dollar for dollar, exactly similar to smoking.

If there are no vape bans, well, vaping will not be prized enough to pay THAT. Also, getting cheap vape equipment into the country would be just entirely easy unless "selling it" and etc. was not a crime etc.

So, in order to make the idea of the type of tax needed to sustain the state's need for funds which they are losing out on, perhaps they think a ban for a while will make vapers more willing to accept oh, a 250% markup on their gear.

Hence it has been with the great marijuana, and the states are LOVING it. They are raking in money hand over fist, because the damn stuff has been illegal, annoying to get, and somewhat dangerous for a LONG while. So, marijuana smokers are willing to pay a premium to obtain a good product (MOSTLY I guess) and to pay a great deal for it. It's also usually better quality.

If vaping goes dark, taxation suddenly becomes way more palatable.

Last I read, people were talking voting. To the best of my knowledge, Bernie Sanders supports vaping with NO regulation and equally so with marijuana

Anna

Too late states have already have been and will tax what ever remains of the industry.

Vermont (new in June 92% of wholesale tax on everything even remotely vaping related)
California 65.08% wholesale on everything
Delaware .05/ml eliquid
Kansas .05/ml on eliquid
Louisiana .05/ml on eliquid
Minnesota 95% of wholesale
New Jersey .05/ml on eliquid
North Carolina .05/ml eliquid
Pennsylvania 40% of wholesale on everything
West Virginia .075/ml on eliquid
DC 60% wholesale on everything

Illinois Maryland, and Alaska have varied municipal taxes on vaping.
So sorry but I can not buy into your theory.

I have never ever heard or seen where Sanders supports vaping in any form let alone unregulated... Source please???

This follows money lines not political lines... Both parties want money.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

I would like clarification on that as well. I can't find any mention of vaping from Sanders online. I doubt he supports vaping. The only silver lining with him re: vaping would be getting $$$ out of politics, but it's a bit of a stretch to say he supports vaping from what I see.

 

[Rossum]

Minnesota 95% of wholesale... they now banned vaping

Did I miss something? Got a link?

 

[YoursTruli]

Did I miss something? Got a link?

No I got my M states mixed up sorry LOL

 

[stols001]

In all fairness my kid mentioned it. To be fair, everything I could find was from like a few years ago. It's entirely possible he has reversed his position (he has a habit of doing that some, which is why I am not always a fan) but I couldn't find much of anything other then the Muppet telling Trump to like, now ban certain weapons because they killed MORE people.

Whether that is a stellar endorsement of vaping or not (probably not) I was not a fan of the statement. LOL. At this point I sort of think that if we could afford them we should be able to buy tanks and smart bombs and whatnot, because THAT is what the amendment was FOR. It was not for killing deer. It was not for school shootings. It was not for the ability to depend on one's personal safety.

It was FOR the right to like, rise up against an unjust government, and at the moment we are SERIOUSLY outgunned. So it's also pretty damn irrelevant whether something is "automatic" or not it really doesn't MATTER how many bullets and how rapidly you HIT A TANK with.

In all fairness, I think we should be MORE armed. The government knows we have ZERO power.

I don't even know what to do about that but petitions and sit ins aren't the answer. They did not work in the 60s and they most certainly will not now.

Anna

 

[sofarsogood]

Too late states have already have been and will tax what ever remains of the industry.

Vermont (new in June 92% of wholesale tax on everything even remotely vaping related)
California 65.08% wholesale on everything
Delaware .05/ml eliquid
Kansas .05/ml on eliquid
Louisiana .05/ml on eliquid
Minnesota 95% of wholesale
New Jersey .05/ml on eliquid
North Carolina .05/ml eliquid
Pennsylvania 40% of wholesale on everything
West Virginia .075/ml on eliquid
DC 60% wholesale on everything

Illinois Maryland, and Alaska have varied municipal taxes on vaping.
So sorry but I can not buy into your theory.

I have never ever heard or seen where Sanders supports vaping in any form let alone unregulated... Source please???

This follows money lines not political lines... Both parties want money.

Taxes on vape products can never replace a fraction of cigarette taxes. Tax the hardware too high and people go online and only a couple of devices are needed. Eliquid is available online but even restricting online won't be very effective.

My DIY experience illustrates the challenge. I spent $3,000 a year to smoke a carton a week. A bottle of 100 mg nic that cost $50 will last me 4 years, $12,000 worth of cigarettes. In a high tax city or state 4 years of cigarettes could be 2 or 3 times higher. My cost of ingredients for DIY is about 10 cents a day. The vape "industry" in the US is 99% eliquid makers and shops. It's surprising so many of both are in business, not because of governmentts but because sensible consumers make most of their own eliquids and buy the hardware directly from China. When the dust has settled that's where things may end up.

 

[Rossum]

Taxes on vape products can never replace a fraction of cigarette taxes.

That depends on what kind of vape products remain on the market when The Powers That Be are done "regulating" it. It would be pretty straightforward to tax sealed pods that are a total PITA to refill.

Also, if the only bottled liquid available is sold via a black market under harsh penalties, it sure won't be available for pennies per milliliter. Of course, violating the FDA's regulations is a merely a civil infraction, but selling dealing in untaxed tobacco products can have grave consequences (e.g. Eric Garner).

 

[Eskie]

Just an interesting tidbit. No idea what it means for their export industry.

China May Roll Out E-cigarette Rules Amid Global Vaping Backlash: State Media

 

[rosesense]

Probably already reported but judge denied halt to temp ban in MI.

 

[AttyPops]

There's still more suits pending though.

 

[mikepetro]

Just an interesting tidbit. No idea what it means for their export industry.

China May Roll Out E-cigarette Rules Amid Global Vaping Backlash: State Media

They will still make whatever we will buy. Even with regulations, enforcement is almost unheard of.

 

[NolaMel]

Just an interesting tidbit. No idea what it means for their export industry.

China May Roll Out E-cigarette Rules Amid Global Vaping Backlash: State Media

Since I retired I don’t have access any more. Can you give me the abstract?