Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Vapeon4Life]

Now, If I may add my two cents worth and see how far it goes.

After well over 50 years of smoking, mainly pipes and cigars, I want to make an anecdotal observation:
With pipes and pipe tobacco especially, flavor is a big part of the experience, true for many vape flavors also, right? - BUT, does flavor actually make nicotine more addictive - Or in fact is it the flavors themselves that are addictive, or at least strongly habit forming?

Now we all know that many vape users have gone to nicotine free vape flavors - and I imagine some have stayed there.

Now, if I was a lawyer working for the vape industry and had a chance to argue my case - I would argue that the act of vaping and the use of vape devices is not limited to use by nicotine and/or tobacco users
- that in fact vaping is not strictly 'a nicotine delivery system' even though that may have been its original use.

Therefor tobacco regulations do not apply - I would bring as witnesses many people who say they have a problem with overeating and obesity, sometimes listed second on the list of self induced causes of death, second only to cigarette smoking. - Such witnesses would testify that vaping non-nicotine flavors helps control their cravings to eat compulsively.

Therefor, even though the FDA might have some say on vape devices because the vape is taken into the body
- TOBACCO REGULATIONS SHOULD NOT APPLY !!!

GOOD BY PMTA !!!

 

[Bronze]

Now, If I may add my two cents worth and see how far it goes.

After well over 50 years of smoking, mainly pipes and cigars, I want to make an anecdotal observation:
With pipes and pipe tobacco especially, flavor is a big part of the experience, true for many vape flavors also, right? - BUT, does flavor actually make nicotine more addictive - Or in fact is it the flavors themselves that are addictive, or at least strongly habit forming?

Now we all know that many vape users have gone to nicotine free vape flavors - and I imagine some have stayed there.

Now, if I was a lawyer working for the vape industry and had a chance to argue my case - I would argue that the act of vaping and the use of vape devices is not limited to use by nicotine and/or tobacco users
- that in fact vaping is not strictly 'a nicotine delivery system' even though that may have been its original use.

Therefor tobacco regulations do not apply - I would bring as witnesses many people who say they have a problem with overeating and obesity, sometimes listed second on the list of self induced causes of death, second only to cigarette smoking. - Such witnesses would testify that vaping non-nicotine flavors helps control their cravings to eat compulsively.

Therefor, even though the FDA might have some say on vape devices because the vape is taken into the body
- TOBACCO REGULATIONS SHOULD NOT APPLY !!!

GOOD BY PMTA !!!

Reasoned defenses are of no interest to the FDA. Sadly.

 

[Train2]

Now, If I may add my two cents worth and see how far it goes.

After well over 50 years of smoking, mainly pipes and cigars, I want to make an anecdotal observation:
With pipes and pipe tobacco especially, flavor is a big part of the experience, true for many vape flavors also, right? - BUT, does flavor actually make nicotine more addictive - Or in fact is it the flavors themselves that are addictive, or at least strongly habit forming?

Now we all know that many vape users have gone to nicotine free vape flavors - and I imagine some have stayed there.

Now, if I was a lawyer working for the vape industry and had a chance to argue my case - I would argue that the act of vaping and the use of vape devices is not limited to use by nicotine and/or tobacco users
- that in fact vaping is not strictly 'a nicotine delivery system' even though that may have been its original use.

Therefor tobacco regulations do not apply - I would bring as witnesses many people who say they have a problem with overeating and obesity, sometimes listed second on the list of self induced causes of death, second only to cigarette smoking. - Such witnesses would testify that vaping non-nicotine flavors helps control their cravings to eat compulsively.

Therefor, even though the FDA might have some say on vape devices because the vape is taken into the body
- TOBACCO REGULATIONS SHOULD NOT APPLY !!!

GOOD BY PMTA !!!

You're using logic. Logic does not apply.
Even without getting into nicotine or flavors, etc - they've added a label to things that CLEARLY are NOT "tobacco products" - like mods, and rda's, that says "This is a Tobacco product".

NO, FDA, you Ministry of Truth you, a hunk of stainless steel with some holes in it does not come from a tobacco plant. A metal tube with a button that holds a battery does not grow on a tobacco plant.

 

[Vapeon4Life]

You're using logic. Logic does not apply.
Even without getting into nicotine or flavors, etc - they've added a label to things that CLEARLY are NOT "tobacco products" - like mods, and rda's, that says "This is a Tobacco product".

NO, FDA, you Mistiry of Truth you, a hunk of stainless steel with some holes in it does not come from a tobacco plant. A metal tube with a button that holds a battery does not grow on a tobacco plant.

When I came to Nevada about 35 years ago the police and their controllers were obsessed with drugs, especially marijuana - You could not buy a water pipe, an old fashioned, made for tobacco warter pipe because, it, among other things was listed as 'paraphernalia' for drugs - They had no dam right to classify water pipes this way, but they did - Still some people, either fought them in court, or whatever, and over times the rules were lifted {or just not enforced}

Years later they legalized marijuana for medicinal use - and then today there are shops all over the state selling marijuana for any use at all as long as you are over 21.

And, as of now, they left vapes alone except they require adult signature for mail delivery - Cost more but that it is a regulation I can live with.

So unless some of these political 'control freaks' want to create a new underworld of tobacco products and vapes - they should have learned from 'Prohibition' and 'the war on drugs' the're best off not going down the slippery slide to,,,,,,,,,,,- But then again maybe that is what they want - A new item to make illegal so they can waste more government money and jobs to control it ????

Has the World really become that corrupt ????

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

Has the World really become that corrupt ????

Yes, sir.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

It's about control. The mentality that I (or we) know better than you and therefore I (or we) have the right to dictate what you can or can't do. Everyone fits into this mentality on some part of a spectrum. It's a matter of what control will the people being controlled accept before they disobey.

 

[englishmick]

It's about control. The mentality that I (or we) know better than you and therefore I (or we) have the right to dictate what you can or can't do. Everyone fits into this mentality on some part of a spectrum. It's a matter of what control will the people being controlled accept before they disobey.

I guess we all have a tendency to want other people to behave in ways we think are right. But for controls to be implemented there needs to be some stuff in place. Politicians can't impose rules that are too widely disliked among the population. There needs to be either the support of a majority of the population, or at least a majority of the supporters of one of the political parties. And the approval of big money. It also helps if the topic is one which large numbers of people don't care about either way. Unfortunately for vaping everything is lined up. They have the support of large numbers of people in both parties, and another large group who don't care.

I guess we failed at getting our message out, but that might have been doomed because the opposition was too rich and influential and skilled at message promotion.

 

[Bronze]

I guess we all have a tendency to want other people to behave in ways we think are right. But for controls to be implemented there needs to be some stuff in place. Politicians can't impose rules that are too widely disliked among the population. There needs to be either the support of a majority of the population, or at least a majority of the supporters of one of the political parties. And the approval of big money. It also helps if the topic is one which large numbers of people don't care about either way. Unfortunately for vaping everything is lined up. They have the support of large numbers of people in both parties, and another large group who don't care.

I guess we failed at getting our message out, but that might have been doomed because the opposition was too rich and influential and skilled at message promotion.

I can point to numerous examples where the minority rules.

 

[englishmick]

I can point to numerous examples where the minority rules.

Yeah, the tail does tend to wag the dog sometimes. But naming examples would offend whoever approves of those particular rules.

 

[Kent C]

Politicians can't impose rules that are too widely disliked among the population.

They do it quite a bit. One might say, then vote them out, But... 1) Incumbency is very difficult to overcome. 2) Elections can, and have been rigged. (not talking about the current presidential one, but for those individual incumbent congress people, and, not all, but some - and from both parties).

 

[Aerodan]

My friend, a vape enthusiast whom I love dearly, votes a certain way (as is her right). The other day she was complaining that the DMV was inept, lost her paperwork and took several days to get simple tasks done.

My comment was: now put them in charge of your vape choices, money, healthcare, defense, personal liberties and the future of your children.

That argument did not register with her, and that too, is her right. But it still gave me reflux.

I stopped playing soccer with my choices many years ago - and started looking for expanded choice. Like, competition breeds excellence. This year a PhD libertarian ran for President and most people didn't even know her name. Not to say anyone should have voted for her, but she was against the PMTA and a great many other government oversights. She was also banned from debating. Not everyone's choice for sure, but sadly not allowed to be a legitimate option.

Whatever team I play for, I want more choice and less bureaucracy. Feels like a reset on the true meaning of "the greater good" is becoming more important every year.

AD

 

[CMD-Ky]

Agree @Kent C

The re-election rate for congress since 1900 has a range from 79% to 98%. The Senate has similar re-election results. A notable exception is the Senate in 1980 when the senate re-election rate fell below 60%. Incumbency, for various reasons, is tough to beat.
Re-elect no one.

 

[HBcorpse]

Agree @Kent C

The re-election rate for congress since 1900 has a range from 79% to 98%. The Senate has similar re-election results. A notable exception in the Senate is 1980 when the senate re-election rate fell below 60%. Incumbency, for various reasons, is tough to beat.

Humans are weird in that, while we will often fight bloody wars for things to change, we simultaneously fear change the most.

One might argue that most wars are fought to keep things the same...but that only furthers the point that we fear change.

To keep this post on topic, I’ll say that the FDA deemings are the new kind of war...being waged by big industries, against the general public.

Makes me sick these companies, and agencies, are so willing to create these issues/laws/policies, when the people that are negatively affected are those they walk amongst...

They clearly forget they have to live in the same country as the people they are screwing over.

 

[Aerodan]

Is it the companies that are driving this regulation? I'm truly asking (because I don't know). From a business standpoint, I'd think that the success of vaping would create much needed new markets for companies regulated into losing profits on taxes, bans etc. I haven't seen the cigarette companies do much to capitalize on vaping, which leads me to believe they're not the drivers behind this. If they are, their just killing a whole burgeoning industry in the US in favor of another dying industry (cigarettes). That seems an odd path.

In the past I would automatically side with the idea that corporate America is the driver of regulation, but doing more reading and watching of capital hill testimony of late I'm thinking they're getting doinked as hard as anyone by the actions of the FDA et al. I dunno...

Philip Morris, for instance, can't own a market is there isn't one.

In order to fight, knowing the enemy is at least 1/2 the battle. Maybe more, depending on how big of a bomb can be dropped.

AD

Humans are weird in that, while we will often fight bloody wars for things to change, we simultaneously fear change the most.

One might argue that most wars are fought to keep things the same...but that only furthers the point that we fear change.

To keep this post on topic, I’ll say that the FDA deemings are the new kind of war...being waged by big industries, against the general public.

Makes me sick these companies, and agencies, are so willing to create these issues/laws/policies, when the people that are negatively affected are those they walk amongst...

They clearly forget they have to live in the same country as the people they are screwing over.

 

[Rossum]

Now we all know that many vape users have gone to nicotine free vape flavors - and I imagine some have stayed there.

While quite a few others have gone to unflavored nicotine vapes -- and I can assure you some have stayed there.

 

[Rossum]

This year a PhD libertarian ran for President and most people didn't even know her name.

Who would take her seriously? I mean she didn't even demand to be called, "Doctor Jorgenson".

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

While quite a few others have gone to unflavored nicotine vapes -- and I can assure you some have stayed there.

AaaaHAAAAA! VG and PG are addictive drugs - they must be regulated and taxed!

YOU SINNERS!

 

[MLEJ]

Is it the companies that are driving this regulation? I'm truly asking (because I don't know). From a business standpoint, I'd think that the success of vaping would create much needed new markets for companies regulated into losing profits on taxes, bans etc. I haven't seen the cigarette companies do much to capitalize on vaping, which leads me to believe they're not the drivers behind this. If they are, their just killing a whole burgeoning industry in the US in favor of another dying industry (cigarettes). That seems an odd path.

In the past I would automatically side with the idea that corporate America is the driver of regulation, but doing more reading and watching of capital hill testimony of late I'm thinking they're getting doinked as hard as anyone by the actions of the FDA et al. I dunno...

Philip Morris, for instance, can't own a market is there isn't one.

In order to fight, knowing the enemy is at least 1/2 the battle. Maybe more, depending on how big of a bomb can be dropped.

AD

The 2 large US tobacco companies extant have both invested in vaping. Using regulation to drive out small competitors is an old tactic used by many businesses in many industries.

Anti-smoking (+ all things related to smoking) is a multi-billion $, world-wide industry. Pharmaceutical companies alone make a fortune on smoking-cessation products, and they're just 1 part -- albeit a huge part -- of the anti-smoking/tobacco/nicotine/vaping business.

 

[englishmick]

The 2 large US tobacco companies extant have both invested in vaping. Using regulation to drive out small competitors is an old tactic used by many businesses in many industries.

Anti-smoking (+ all things related to smoking) is a multi-billion $, world-wide industry. Pharmaceutical companies alone make a fortune on smoking-cessation products, and they're just 1 part -- albeit a huge part -- of the anti-smoking/tobacco/nicotine/vaping business.

Yeah, tobacco is big but they are a tiddler compared with pharma. Apart from smoking cessation products maybe they are hedging against nic as a future pharma product, smoking cessation is likely to be a declining market. If nic really turned out to be helpful with Alzheimer's it could be the biggest earner in the history of the world, as long as they controlled it. Not so much profit if people could get it almost free through vaping.

It's hard to figure out who is pulling the strings. The corporations operate through so many convoluted layers of think tanks and pressure groups and research grants and media contacts and politicians.

 

[Kent C]

Makes me sick these companies, and agencies, are so willing to create these issues/laws/policies, when the people that are negatively affected are those they walk amongst...

They clearly forget they have to live in the same country as the people they are screwing over.

On the last point, yeah, same country but different rules. You can't go to any restaurant - they can. You're advised to stay inside and not travel by some pol who was on vacation, ad infinitum.

It's mainly certain gov't agencies and the non-gov't agencies - Cancer, heart, lung, anti-smoking, certain university elites, etc. that push those issues. Some tobacco companies are attempting to take advantage, though, but not outright ban, like the others.