Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
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There is nothing wrong with fighting the fire and pointing out who specifically started the blaze. I've read most of this thread and it hasn't been derailed into partisan politics as some members claim. The issue being discussed are still on these draconian regulations, however, some members seemed irate that the mere mention of the politicians and that their political party is behind these regulations. Hell, an adminstrator just posted a link a few pages back about the names of the politicians and their political party that took Big Pharma money. Is that partisan politics or is that the plain truth?
The politicians are never going to support us if the public isn't even on our side.
I don't think our inability to come together, or even to be moved to action, is the problem.
The problem has always been that we never had enough money.
We were in a propaganda war against masters of propaganda with ENORMOUS war chests.
Bobwho is absolutely right that we need to win the public over.
The question still remains how can we afford to do it?
It's gonna take all of us.
And all our friends and family.
Likewise here. I also see a lot of the usual ANTZ talking points.
That's why whatever PR that gets done needs to introduce Joe, and Jane Nonvaper to their neighbors. You know? The nice couple down the block that quit smoking a couple of years ago? The old man mowing his lawn, that had COPD? Reciting facts, and debunking junk science only gets you so far (and apparently it's not far enough) This fight has always been personal for US. We need to make it personal for nonvapers, too
So...Girls and Boys
I kept wondering what the FDA application fee is for a PMTA. After slogging through part of a webinar by the desk killers it turns out that IF you want to play ball with the FDA you pay a "User Fee" on a quarterly basis. Naturally it's laden with tons of bureaucracy, calculations that give me a migraine, and paper work to calculate your invoice. I think I found some documents which should give all of us a pretty good idea (though not exact) of exactly how much money the FDA collects for the privilege of submitting a PMTA etc. Fasten your hard drives and grip your mouse:
First you submit so they can calculate:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/RulesRegulationsGuidance/UCM405202.pdf
The actual money you pay via their own ball park calculations:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/RulesRegulationsGuidance/UCM462190.pdf
Even the cheapest privilege cost 400K+ per year just to play ball with the FDA. YIKES!
EDIT: It's worth noting that this is NOT a one time "User Fee". As long as you play in the FDAs sandbox you pay this fee which gets tweaked/changed every year.
Don't hold me to it but I seem to remember reading, somewhere in that 499 pages of garbage, that user fees was the one bone the FDA threw to us. That, at least for the time being, there wouldn't be any user fees, just the initial application fee plus all the testing fees.
I'll see if I can track it down.
I think what is Getting to Some Members is we are Doing the Same things we have done for the Last 5 Years when Deeming Wasn't Released. More Talk than Action.
If it is Over, and there is Nothing Left to do, that's Fine. I think there is More that can Still Be Done. But Maybe I'm Wrong. Maybe this is as Far as People want to take things.
I Still think People could be...
Contacting any e-Cigarette Website telling them to Post Links to SFATA, CASAA, Deeming/PMTA Docs.
Contacting any e-Cigarette Website and asking them if they Are or Plane to Donate to a Group like SFATA, CASAA, etc.?
Contact their Reps and Demand a Clear Answer about where they stand on the Ag Amendment/HR2058.
Contact the FDA Directly and tell them Exactly what You think about Deeming and the Future of e-Cigarettes.
Send a Letter to their Local Papers telling their Story/Views and say you want it Published in the Opinion Section.
Write a Letter to any Sympathetic Rep like Burr or Hunter.
Write a Letter to their Reps and Ask if the Congressional Review Act is going to be Used on "Deeming". And if Not, Why?
Make a Donation, No Matter How Small, to CASAA or SFATA or AEMSA.
Consider getting Local B&M involved in Some Kind of Organized Rally or Get-together.
Consider getting Local B&M to get Any Type of Petition or Signature List going to send to a State Rep.
Spread any Positive Video, Study, Article on Social Networks.
Spread any Positive Video, Study, Article via e-Mail CC's and BCC's.
Tell people you Send thing to Not Just Read it, but to Also Pass it On.
Again, it's just a fact as to who proclaims 'partisan bickering'. I think it's rather curious. I don't think losing vaping is funny at all - so conflating two issues of 'losing' to make your point that was no point of mine, isn't that funny either.
I have had 6 years of trying to understand the public on this issue. The smokers who said they wanted to quit and asked me about it, I spent lots of time and my own money getting them set up. Almost all said it didn't work or whatever, then a month later they were raving about how they went to a local vape shop, got an ego or vamo or whatever atm and now are smoke free for x days/weeks/months. It is almost like they trust the shops more than a friend or family member. Then the non or xsmokers gave me the spiels from PH or antz about antifreeze or other bad things, etc. They weren't willing to listen to any of the other studies/info. Minds were made up and that was that.
So how do we get them to listen? Even those other documentaries like the one about food, have people saying it is a conspiracy, not true and on and on.
Look how many active members on ecf right now, for instance. I wonder how many of them have joined an advocacy group.
So how do we get them to listen? Even those other documentaries like the one about food, have people saying it is a conspiracy, not true and on and on.
Look how many active members on ecf right now, for instance. I wonder how many of them have joined an advocacy group.
Below is my comment and response to the FDA. I know it doesn't solve anything but I feel better when I do it.
Lumping vaping and smoking into the same bucket is completely illogical. Combustion and smoke is the real killer and everybody including elementary school students knows this. Nicotine consumption is already approved for long term use and is scientifically proven by numerous studies to be about as harmful as caffeine. And appears to have cognitive benefits and may prove to be a treatment for certain cognitive diseases. The science behind nicotine itself goes back many years and is completely ignored on this issue. All we see is nicotine = sickness and death. I'm not an idiot and don't appreciate being treated like one. The only sensible regulation would be to create a new class of recreational product and have regulations focused on the actual harm of the product. But that isn't what happened. Not even close. We're staring down the barrel of a modern day health miracle. One that has been sought after for decades. The end of smoking. And what do we get? Our voices silenced, the truth twisted, completely biased propaganda, our future compromised, another freedom taken away, and all in the name of what? Money, corruption, and crony capitalism.
Bob- Any product wishing to enter the market as a cessation tool is required to show both effectiveness and safety before being approved as a drug or device by FDA - and e-cigarettes have not yet passed that basic test. Regulations are not a ban, but give us the ability to further evaluate and assess the impact of e-cigarettes on the health of both users and non-users, and regulate the products based on the most current scientific knowledge.
Like · Reply · 53 mins
I think I need to make my point more clear based on your response. I wasn't implying that ecigarettes should be lumped into the treatment/medical bucket. I was simply stating that nicotine itself does not pose any credible health risk and the FDA already approved it as such. It is no more harmful to the human body than caffeine. It's a proven scientific fact that has been around for many years.
My main point was that the FDA's approach is lumping cigarettes (smoke) and ecigarettes (vapor) into the identical regulatory bucket. That's not even apples to oranges. It's apples to boulders. The only sensible approach is to create a new class of recreational product (note recreational) that will ultimately replace combustible cigarettes in the United States. That is a health miracle without even requiring any medical treatment, prescriptions, mind altering pharmaceuticals, or ineffective nicotine replacement therapy. But that's not what big businesses want. Not at all. Because it would cost billions in profits to both the tobacco and pharmaceutical companies. Not one single sensible concession was made with the deeming regulations when comparing vapor to smoke.
The regulations are artfully crafted (in every possible way) to completely destroy the industry. How can you honestly say that ANY small business stands ANY chance at affording and/or succeeding the PMTA process? I read up on what Swedish Match and their 100,000 pages of application had to go through. The regulations as written are quite heavy handed and draconian. I feel sorry for the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost in the next 2 years. And even worse for the increased harm caused by not having a viable recreational alternative to packs of cigarettes sitting on the shelves in millions of stores.
All data currently coming out is proving that ecigarettes are in fact 95 to possibly 100% safer than combustible cigarettes. From undeniably credible sources like the Royal College of Physicians no less. But instead they are being treated as carbon copies of each other. The more I think about it the more insane it looks. Until I think about tobacco and pharmaceutical special interests. Then it becomes pretty clear.
Lumping vaping and smoking into the same bucket is completely illogical. Combustion and smoke is the real killer and everybody including elementary school students knows this. Nicotine consumption is already approved for long term use and is scientifically proven by numerous studies to be about as harmful as caffeine. And appears to have cognitive benefits and may prove to be a treatment for certain cognitive diseases. The science behind nicotine itself goes back many years and is completely ignored on this issue. All we see is nicotine = sickness and death. I'm not an idiot and don't appreciate being treated like one. The only sensible regulation would be to create a new class of recreational product and have regulations focused on the actual harm of the product. But that isn't what happened. Not even close. We're staring down the barrel of a modern day health miracle. One that has been sought after for decades. The end of smoking. And what do we get? Our voices silenced, the truth twisted, completely biased propaganda, our future compromised, another freedom taken away, and all in the name of what? Money, corruption, and crony capitalism.
Bob- Any product wishing to enter the market as a cessation tool is required to show both effectiveness and safety before being approved as a drug or device by FDA - and e-cigarettes have not yet passed that basic test. Regulations are not a ban, but give us the ability to further evaluate and assess the impact of e-cigarettes on the health of both users and non-users, and regulate the products based on the most current scientific knowledge.
Like · Reply · 53 mins
I think I need to make my point more clear based on your response. I wasn't implying that ecigarettes should be lumped into the treatment/medical bucket. I was simply stating that nicotine itself does not pose any credible health risk and the FDA already approved it as such. It is no more harmful to the human body than caffeine. It's a proven scientific fact that has been around for many years.
My main point was that the FDA's approach is lumping cigarettes (smoke) and ecigarettes (vapor) into the identical regulatory bucket. That's not even apples to oranges. It's apples to boulders. The only sensible approach is to create a new class of recreational product (note recreational) that will ultimately replace combustible cigarettes in the United States. That is a health miracle without even requiring any medical treatment, prescriptions, mind altering pharmaceuticals, or ineffective nicotine replacement therapy. But that's not what big businesses want. Not at all. Because it would cost billions in profits to both the tobacco and pharmaceutical companies. Not one single sensible concession was made with the deeming regulations when comparing vapor to smoke.
The regulations are artfully crafted (in every possible way) to completely destroy the industry. How can you honestly say that ANY small business stands ANY chance at affording and/or succeeding the PMTA process? I read up on what Swedish Match and their 100,000 pages of application had to go through. The regulations as written are quite heavy handed and draconian. I feel sorry for the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost in the next 2 years. And even worse for the increased harm caused by not having a viable recreational alternative to packs of cigarettes sitting on the shelves in millions of stores.
All data currently coming out is proving that ecigarettes are in fact 95 to possibly 100% safer than combustible cigarettes. From undeniably credible sources like the Royal College of Physicians no less. But instead they are being treated as carbon copies of each other. The more I think about it the more insane it looks. Until I think about tobacco and pharmaceutical special interests. Then it becomes pretty clear.
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I posted on CASAA FB that having the vendors set up display about the regs and joining advocacy group is great but I believe the online vendors need to send out flyers with each order also. I received two mail orders this week and nothing was included about any of this.
Personally, I think ECF should suspend all forums other than those that are Media/FDA/Ordinance related for about a week.
What a mess I know and the website ad revenue might fall but I bet 95% of ECF members have no clue what's going on. Seems like most are going on with their merry vape lives without a care in the world. "Awareness" (or lack thereof) is the enemy I think.
My asinine comment of the week folks! (And it's only Wednesday
)
What a mess I know and the website ad revenue might fall but I bet 95% of ECF members have no clue what's going on. Seems like most are going on with their merry vape lives without a care in the world. "Awareness" (or lack thereof) is the enemy I think.
My asinine comment of the week folks! (And it's only Wednesday
)BTW - If anyone can Think of Something that could be Added to this List, by All Means, Please Post it.
---------------
I Still think People could be...
Contacting any e-Cigarette Website telling them to Post Links to SFATA, CASAA, Deeming/PMTA Docs.
Contacting any e-Cigarette Website and asking them if they Are or Plane to Donate to a Group like SFATA, CASAA, etc.?
Contact their Reps and Demand a Clear Answer about where they stand on the Ag Amendment/HR2058.
Contact the FDA Directly and tell them Exactly what You think about Deeming and the Future of e-Cigarettes.
Send a Letter to their Local Papers telling their Story/Views and say you want it Published in the Opinion Section.
Write a Letter to any Sympathetic Rep like Burr or Hunter.
Write a Letter to their Reps and Ask if the Congressional Review Act is going to be Used on "Deeming". And if Not, Why?
Make a Donation, No Matter How Small, to CASAA or SFATA or AEMSA.
Consider getting Local B&M involved in Some Kind of Organized Rally or Get-together.
Consider getting Local B&M to get Any Type of Petition or Signature List going to send to a State Rep.
Spread any Positive Video, Study, Article on Social Networks.
Spread any Positive Video, Study, Article via e-Mail CC's and BCC's.
Tell people you Send thing to Not Just Read it, but to Also Pass it On.
---------------
I Still think People could be...
Contacting any e-Cigarette Website telling them to Post Links to SFATA, CASAA, Deeming/PMTA Docs.
Contacting any e-Cigarette Website and asking them if they Are or Plane to Donate to a Group like SFATA, CASAA, etc.?
Contact their Reps and Demand a Clear Answer about where they stand on the Ag Amendment/HR2058.
Contact the FDA Directly and tell them Exactly what You think about Deeming and the Future of e-Cigarettes.
Send a Letter to their Local Papers telling their Story/Views and say you want it Published in the Opinion Section.
Write a Letter to any Sympathetic Rep like Burr or Hunter.
Write a Letter to their Reps and Ask if the Congressional Review Act is going to be Used on "Deeming". And if Not, Why?
Make a Donation, No Matter How Small, to CASAA or SFATA or AEMSA.
Consider getting Local B&M involved in Some Kind of Organized Rally or Get-together.
Consider getting Local B&M to get Any Type of Petition or Signature List going to send to a State Rep.
Spread any Positive Video, Study, Article on Social Networks.
Spread any Positive Video, Study, Article via e-Mail CC's and BCC's.
Tell people you Send thing to Not Just Read it, but to Also Pass it On.
What I said in this thread awhile back was what Classwife pointed out....
Murder!
This is not about politics. It is about murder.
Every letter.
Every email.
Every video.
Every phone call.
Every post on social media.
Every time you speak about vaping.
The first words should be,
"The FDA is commiting Murder."
If they support the FDA then they are complicit in the genocide of smokers by regulating vaping products that prove to save lives. They are murdering the parents, grandparents, and siblings of children across America.
I don't care if the advocates dont like this messaging frankly. You lead with Murder, and thr damage to families. Especially if your story includes family members who smoked that are no longer on this earth.
Its time to change and control the entire conversation. NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK. Stop bickering about regs, legislation, and partisianship. Change it, via every thing you do and say about vaping to starting with:
Murder.
The only thing that matters now is THE MESSAGE we reply with, as one voice.
They are murdering me, you, and everyone who vapes or smokes.
Murder!
This is not about politics. It is about murder.
Every letter.
Every email.
Every video.
Every phone call.
Every post on social media.
Every time you speak about vaping.
The first words should be,
"The FDA is commiting Murder."
If they support the FDA then they are complicit in the genocide of smokers by regulating vaping products that prove to save lives. They are murdering the parents, grandparents, and siblings of children across America.
I don't care if the advocates dont like this messaging frankly. You lead with Murder, and thr damage to families. Especially if your story includes family members who smoked that are no longer on this earth.
Its time to change and control the entire conversation. NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK. Stop bickering about regs, legislation, and partisianship. Change it, via every thing you do and say about vaping to starting with:
Murder.
The only thing that matters now is THE MESSAGE we reply with, as one voice.
They are murdering me, you, and everyone who vapes or smokes.
Recently entered an Innokin contest and the page where you sign up
asks if you're aware of the regs and if you're a member of CASAA. Awesome.
Haven't placed any orders yet since the hammer went down but will see
if there's anything mentioned when I order and when I receive.
It's rare that people value free things. When they buy their own mod, it's the 'best ever' (at least for a week or so lol). I could cite many examples, but I won't
You 'Like'd too many posts in too short of a time period. Let the forum software catch up and rest a minute
Very well put. Thank you
ENOUGH. This ^^ is the stuff that will get posts deleted. This adds Nothing to the conversation and just continues the bickering back and forth.
Personally, I think ECF should suspend all forums other than those that are Media/FDA/Ordinance related for about a week.
What a mess I know and the website ad revenue might fall but I bet 95% of ECF members have no clue what's going on. Seems like most are going on with their merry vape lives without a care in the world. "Awareness" (or lack thereof) is the enemy I think.
My asinine comment of the week folks! (And it's only Wednesday
Thank you for the chuckle
The headache that would cause....
I can only imagine the PM's.... . 
Very well put. Thank you
ENOUGH. This ^^ is the stuff that will get posts deleted. This adds Nothing to the conversation and just continues the bickering back and forth.
So did the post that you said 'Very well put. Thank you.' You don't see that??
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