Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[The Ocelot]

Years ago I signed every petition, and may have been a CASAA member. I remember when a guy named webby created the website, and it was a very nice looking website. I also listened to the radio shows, and podcasts. I thought fighting the deeming regulations a couple years ago was really the big one, and was really disheartened when something like 6k people had participated. A lot has happened since then. It's just mind boggling to me how there doesn't seem to be as much going on now.

The sad part is that there shouldn't have to be vigilant advocacy going on now. By this time people should just be able to vape.

 

[The Ocelot]

Actually:

View attachment 557425

That is where it comes from, but I love my Golden's

Okay I was totally wrong. You do know I have a learning disorder, right? I had decided that your name was a clever way to spell "crisis."

Feel free to laugh and point, I'm used to it.

 

[crxess]

Okay I was totally wrong. You do know I have a learning disorder, right? I had decided that your name was a clever way to spell "crisis."

Feel free to laugh and point, I'm used to it.

Don't feel Bad, I've been confusing people with this handle for over a Decade

To me, Crisis is what one faces through ignorance of an issue. Crisis avoidance comes from allowing a problem to escalate to a Danger point, then attempting to correct the Damage.............. Sound Familiar?
If problems were addressed and Resolved as they became apparent there would be no Crisis to resolve.

I'm about damage controlled out

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Just came across this article from ECITA - the UK's explanation of the 'deeming regs by the FDA'. Altho it hits all the points already made, the writer explains it so much better than some articles I have seen. Worth a read imo.
FDA ‘Deeming’ of e-cigs – designed to destroy? | ECITA - Electronic Cigarette Industry Trade Association

 

[mudram99]

Feel free to laugh and point, I'm used to it.

Ok, teeheehee, look at the pretty kitty with spots.

 

[crxess]

Just came across this article from ECITA - the UK's explanation of the 'deeming regs by the FDA'. Altho it hits all the points already made, the writer explains it so much better than some articles I have seen. Worth a read imo.
FDA ‘Deeming’ of e-cigs – designed to destroy? | ECITA - Electronic Cigarette Industry Trade Association

Clearly Goal oriented:

(For example, consolidation might occur under the baseline as large manufacturers of traditional tobacco products enter this market and perhaps absorb smaller manufacturers and products.)”

 

[Antwoord]

I don't think you know me, but trust when I say I spend a great deal of time pondering. Kate wrote a great song, but making deals with God is nothing to be entered into lightly.

Now on to pirates... a pirate broke my heart.

I have seen you around for a long time. Always incredibly knowledgeable and witty I spend a great deal of time pondering myself over similar things recently. I think I have gotten every thing I wished for. When I was young the sympathy that characters in movies would receive after an injury apparently inspired me, and I remember walking around elementary school wishing for a similar fate. One day during recess a kid I played football with tried to tackle me at full speed. I didn't even hear him coming. He dove into my waist, and rolled off the left side. I didn't fall, my back just twisted. To this day I have scar tissue from it. What I really wanted or needed never came from the right people, and after all my injury was a fluke. It's not as if I deserved a medal.

Aslo in my formative years there was an exercise where we were asked, "If you could be anyone else in the world who would you be?" The worksheet had pictures of celebrities, famous scientists, etc. on it. I couldn't imagine myself being anyone else. Still, I wish whatever secret star that may have shone down on me could have shone on some others. Though it may just be madness There was a charity that the band Fugazi was supporting at one time, and there was a quote that they put under the banner for the charity that said, "Put ability into disability." I thought it was a profound statement, and I endeavored to share whatever angels watched over me with those around me. Over time I learned that there are some things that nothing but playing this kind of game, the legal game HR 2058 etc., can stop. There's no humanity in it. I suppose instead of getting lost in the cold one could say we need to put humanity in the inhumane.

I think I've rambled on too much. Snow Cherries from France is quite a lovely song. Thank you How do we get non-smokers to care? I will ponder that one for a while

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Clearly Goal oriented:

I actually think that one could use the FDA's own wording to win in court. Their intent is obvious so one would think they wrote the regs just to satisfy their deadlines to Congress. Remember Congress pretty much gave them carte blanc as to how to do them.

 

[crxess]

Remember Congress pretty much gave them carte blanc as to how to do them.

This in itself needs to be addressed. Congress to Give the FDA Free Rein, so long as PMTA's SE's Pay most of the Bill, has lead to Excessive Over Reach in all Divisions of the FDA.

The Elephants are loose and the Clowns are running amuck. Time for the Ring Master to regain control.

 

[lauragal]

If you've got more, please don't stop.

Some of the stuff just boggles my mind, particularly the part I left above. I'm seriously tempted to start the "OMG Juice Company". I'm thinking August 15th would be a good day to open for business. It should be a brand-new company that's never been in the business of supplying any tobacco or nicotine product. The plan would be to market a few nic-free juices; just PG, VG, and flavors are NOT made from tobacco. It doesn't matter if a whole lot of people buy it, the point is not to make money, but rather to get shut down by the FDA in order to achieve standing in the courts and get a declaratory judgement that the products offered are NOT tobacco products, and that the FDA can't force one to put statements on product labels that are patently false.

LOVE this idea!!!!!

 

[lauragal]

I just sent this to Avalon Television

I would like to see John Oliver do a program on the recently released FDA deeming regulations on tobacco products. “Deeming” as in under the guise of protecting public health (Save the Children!) they can deem anything they like to be a tobacco product, even if it doesn’t contain tobacco. It’s like deeming a glass an alcohol product because there is wine in it.

Four years ago I quit a 40-year smoking habit by vaping. I use a small battery powered personal vaporizer and tank to heat a propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin based liquid, mixed with small amounts of nicotine and food grade flavoring into a vapor and inhale it. Tobacco is not involved. Nicotine is not tobacco.

Nicotine is to tobacco like sugar is to several species of tall perennial true grasses of the genus Saccharum, tribe Andropogoneae, native to the warm temperate to tropical regions of South Asia and Melanesia. Or a Naturalamb condom is to a sheep.

The vaping device I use doesn’t look like a cigarette. It looks like a cross between a flashlight and a marital aid. Sadly, the US company that makes my device will have to go out of business since they can’t afford the estimated $1,000,000.00 it would cost to prove, amongst other things, that their battery powered flashlight/marital aid doesn’t endanger public health and will not entice non-battery powered flashlight/marital aid users to use one.

(Insert emoji of middle-aged woman slamming her head on a desk.)

An estimated $1,000,000.00 to prove that a non-smoker won’t use a device that helps people stop smoking? They also have to prove that a non-smoker, who uses a device that helps people stop smoking, won’t use it and then go on to start smoking cigarettes. It’s in the regs. (Links provided on request.)

The FDA has put a lot of effort into this surreal venture. The regulations grandfather in products on the market before 2007, which leaves traditional tobacco cigarettes untouched. The only companies with enough funds to file applications for new products have no reason to. When the alternatives are regulated out of existence they hope people will go back to smoking. Win-Cough-Win.

I think Mr. Oliver can have fun with this topic and hope he chooses to. It’s begging for satire, especially considering the elephant in their 499-page document. For some reason the FDA decided to call vaping devices Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems (ENDS), when everyone knows they are Personal Electronic Nicotine Inhalation Systems.


ETA: Bolded for @crxess

Excellent and perfectly worded!!

 

[DPLongo22]

This in itself needs to be addressed. Congress to Give the FDA Free Rein, so long as PMTA's SE's Pay most of the Bill, has lead to Excessive Over Reach in all Divisions of the FDA.

The Elephants are loose and the Clowns are running amuck. Time for the Ring Master to regain control.

Our National Registry has become an insatiable, gluttonous pig. A veritable Jabba the Hut of kept-records.

 

[ENAUD]

Our National Registry has become an insatiable, gluttonous pig. A veritable Jabba the Hut of kept-records.

When there are so many laws on the books that no man knows at any time if he is in violation of a particular law, there is in fact, no law, just lawlessness.

HaHa, I just made that up

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

This in itself needs to be addressed. Congress to Give the FDA Free Rein, so long as PMTA's SE's Pay most of the Bill, has lead to Excessive Over Reach in all Divisions of the FDA.

The Elephants are loose and the Clowns are running amuck. Time for the Ring Master to regain control.

nm

 

[Katya]

If you've got more, please don't stop.

Some of the stuff just boggles my mind, particularly the part I left above. I'm seriously tempted to start the "OMG Juice Company". I'm thinking August 15th would be a good day to open for business. It should be a brand-new company that's never been in the business of supplying any tobacco or nicotine product. The plan would be to market a few nic-free juices; just PG, VG, and flavors are NOT made from tobacco. It doesn't matter if a whole lot of people buy it, the point is not to make money, but rather to get shut down by the FDA in order to achieve standing in the courts and get a declaratory judgement that the products offered are NOT tobacco products, and that the FDA can't force one to put statements on product labels that are patently false.

Rossum! Welcome to thread!

Brilliant idea, BTW.

 

[Katya]

Thank you DC2. The only reason I never joined was because I didn't feel like I had much to offer, but now I can see the benefits of membership differently. Signed up and petitioned!

Feel like signing some more?

Endorsed by CASAA

"Del. Larry Faircloth (R-WV) has proven himself as a valuable and effective advocate for vapor products in West Virginia. Now, in the wake of the FDA deeming regulations, he is taking his talent and legislative experience to lawmakers in D.C.

Please take action NOW by signing Del. Faircloth’s petition -- which will be hand delivered to specific lawmakers -- and support his effort to stand up to the FDA’s overreaching and disastrous regulations on vapor products."

Take Action - Sign the Petition

Also:

Our friends in UK need help (this petition is also being endorsed by Dick Puddlecote):

Please add your voice, sign the petition!
David Cameron MP: Support Parliamentary moves to block crazy e-cigarette regulations

Tweet: send your support for the ‪#‎LordsVapeVote‬ to @Number10gov @jeremycorbyn @MartinCallanan

Fatal Motion Tabled In House Of Lords To Stop E-Cigarette Regulations

 

[crxess]

They just adapted the regs from cigs to ecigs. Just copy and paste. Not even 2 brain cells were needed.

You know, I read through the whole PMTA Application and Oddly enough there is NO APPLICATION.
Just Page after Page of Guidelines for DATA the Applicant Must supply(at undetermined expense) along with a Big Fat check to have the FDA Review all the HARD WORK the Applicant went through.
Sounds more like a Cash Scam than anything else.

For a NON-Multi-billion Dollar Corporation the odds of (1st) affordability and (2nd) Success are NIL.

The FDA has become an Affront to the American Way of Life.

Bill of Rights -(Before being .......ized)

Article the third... Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Article the twelfth... The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Just sounds like there is an awful lot on the Books that is debatable.

I'm sure there is more, but I'm beat.
Night all!

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

You know, I read through the whole PMTA Application and Oddly enough there is NO APPLICATION.
Just Page after Page of Guidelines for DATA the Applicant Must supply(at undetermined expense) along with a Big Fat check to have the FDA Review all the HARD WORK the Applicant went through.
Sounds more like a Cash Scam than anything else.

For a NON-Multi-billion Dollar Corporation the odds of (1st) affordability and (2nd) Success are NIL.

The FDA has become an Affront to the American Way of Life.

Bill of Rights -(Before being .......ized)





Just sounds like there is an awful lot on the Books that is debatable.

I'm sure there is more, but I'm beat.
Night all!

Totally a cash scam.....tho it was originally intended for BT because they knew that they had big $ and probably to punish them also. And to get a piece of their action. jmo.

I think its all debatable. 2 things I kept thinking while I was looking at the US Code21 and the Public Law 111-41-June 22, 2009(Family Smoking Prevention & Tobacco Control Act) was:

1) ejuice vendors just remove all nic from their juice and still sell all their formulas as currently do. (users would have to go to nic supply houses for nic and make their own). And
2) Maybe all vendors should then apply for an exemption from the regs.

The only thing that vaping has in common is the nic. NO vaping device or ejuice actually contain any tobacco leaves as described in the US codes or do they resemble anything that even comes close to the 'official' definition of what the law says constitutes a 'cigarette'


Just a thought.

 

[Steamix]

Just came across this article from ECITA - the UK's explanation of the 'deeming regs by the FDA'. Altho it hits all the points already made, the writer explains it so much better than some articles I have seen. Worth a read imo.
FDA ‘Deeming’ of e-cigs – designed to destroy? | ECITA - Electronic Cigarette Industry Trade Association

Outlining it nicely, that article

Catch 22 in perfection.

Need approved hardware to test your liquids on for PMTA

Need approved liquids to test your hardware on for PMTA

Which is again a nod to BT's 'closed systems' , i.e. yesteryears vaping technology.


- - -

The good senator from the oversight comittee of course had to wait till it's on the table to question it.
Same with the EU TPD2 regs. Nowhere as bad as what FDA has in store for the vaping brethren beyond the pond. But plenty bad enought that vapers want it to go away. Only now it's been integrated into national laws of the member states. And NOW the lawyers are getting busy.
Can't contest what's not there - yet.

- - -

Come 2018, we'll have a vape-easy instead of a speak-easy in the neighbourhood.

Cuz the regulations are indeed a de-facto ban. And banned fruit are always more temtping. According to some account, it's what got us into trouble in the first place ( Genesis 3 : 5 till... ). Did some googling. Seems the prohibition back then backfired some bad - instead of sobering out the nation more people got more drunk.

The coolness factor of forbidden fruit - underground vape-easy as the next 'in' go-to place ...

... might actually boost vaping

PT cruiser, fedora, mod looking like a tommy gun - interesting times ahead

 

[Talyon]

Nothing wrong with chest thumping. But it wont translate into the necessary action we need. I've been around politics too long. Everyone chest thumps. After awhile you don't hear it anymore. Pols pay attention to two things. Money and constituents. Money always. Constituents when theirass is on the hook.

And yet you keep repeating what i already know, why?
At our level theres very little we can do, so Hope is one of those small things i can do.

The action needed is being done.