Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[zoiDman]

I was thinking that the FDA would lose and then appeal. Not the other way around. If FDA is then ordered to 'set aside' the deeming regs, I have no doubt they would appeal this ruling.
And yes of course, continue supporting the CB Amendment and HR2058.

Could be. But I Wouldn't bank on it. And I see NO Chance that the Entire Deeming would be 'set aside' by Any Court.

Keep the Letters going to House and Senate Reps. And pray to whatever Higher Power you believe in that the Next Congress and the Next President will see things (at least in part) like We do.

 

[crxess]

I see no way to avoid saying that when it comes to THIS issue, the Democrats are NOT our friends. This issue is too important not to say what should be obvious.

Probably more proper for fairness to all involved would be - Democratic Party as there are, few and far between, Democrats that do support the idea vaping should be allowed to flourish.

I vote according to what Value I see an individual bringing to this country and its once great Freedom.

 

[englishmick]

Oh Jeez, I hate to break it to you...
But your kitchen sink may indeed be a tobacco product...

Have you ever rinsed your hands in the kitchen sink after getting some juice on them?
Yeah? Well, if so then welcome to the land of tobacco products.

It might be that the kitchen becomes a tobacco manufacturing facility, which means it would have to follow clean room regulations. That's bad news for me.

 

[deucesjack]

Probably more proper for fairness to all involved would be - Democratic Party as there are, few and far between, Democrats that do support the idea Vaping should be allowed to flourish.

I vote according to what Value I see an individual bringing to this country and its once great Freedom.

Very far and few in between. So few that it just doesn't matter.

Sent from my GT-N8013 using Tapatalk

 

[Bronze]

Probably more proper for fairness to all involved would be - Democratic Party as there are, few and far between, Democrats that do support the idea Vaping should be allowed to flourish.

I vote according to what Value I see an individual bringing to this country and its once great Freedom.

Probably right. There are a few scattered Democrats that would or do support our side. As a party, the Democratic Party is against us.

 

[Lessifer]

I am in no way saying that the Republicans are the end all and be all for vapers. I am saying that you have a much better chance of less control with the Republicans than you do with the Democrats. As plain as that is to see for most semi intelligent people sadly most Vapers just don't get it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk

For THIS issue you are correct.

 

[Gabiano87]

Yeah that was quite sad when investigative journalism died. I do find it funny the similarities between a communist news broadcast and a western on now. They read the script so well its kinda creepy. Will be fun studying politics or sociology an uni 50 years down the line looking at this whole 30 plus year period. The machine is damn fine tuned to a beast.

 

[bigdancehawk]

When you say the Statutory Definition is "Circular", what exactly do you mean?

And how might it Benefit some of what we are facing?

I think he means something like what I posted in this thread eight days ago. Here it is again, slightly revised:
Speaking of the Constitution, and trying to get back on topic, if a statute is hopelessly vague, such that people can't figure out what it covers and what it doesn't so that they can adjust their behavior accordingly, the statute may be declared "void for vagueness" and thus unconstitutional. The FSPTCA, particularly as interpreted and applied by the FDA, may be void for vagueness and I am surprised that neither of the lawsuits filed to date has made this attack.

Specifically, The FSPTCA defines "tobacco product" to mean "any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product)."

This definition is badly flawed. When writing a definition, you must not include the defined term in the definition. This is particularly important when writing statutory definitions. It makes the definition circle back on itself.

In this case, when a "tobacco product" is initially limited to things which are made or derived from tobacco, and then they try to expand the definition to include other things, but those other things must also be "of a tobacco product" as initially defined, then it would seem to me that these other things could only qualify as tobacco products if they were likewise made or derived from tobacco. That might be interpreted to exclude such things as atomizers and battery powered mods.

 

[Lessifer]

Yeah, I'm going to argue that the media is more guilty.

Because the collective WE put their trust in the media and have been betrayed.
And the collective WE doesn't even know it.

The death of investigative reporting was the death of an informed populace.
Propaganda is what has taken it's place.

Much like a communist country.

Blaming WE means we have to assume that WE have access to the truth.
And generally speaking, the collective WE really doesn't.

The truth, these days, only exists in alternative media outlets.

They hide in plain sight. Watch "Wag the Dog." It's not a dark comedy, it's a documentary.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Funny you mention that. I was vaping at my neighbor's kitchen table and my neighbor's daughter (44 years old) who was visiting from out of town starting acting childish waving her hands around and fake coughing and wincing her eyes like I was killing her with my "smoke" before the vape had even drifted beyond two feet. Her sister was there and told her it was vape, not smoke. She insisted it was killing her. Her sister went off on her. Told her it was the same as the fog machines she sits in front of at concerts. There are just some people who refuse to open their minds about anything. Their heads are made of rock. They get it in their minds they hate smokers and just extend that to vapers as well. It's not the act, it's personal to them. They hate smokers and they hate us. If "smoke" comes out it is bad. Period. End of story. Like I say, their heads are made of rock.

This is an oldie, but explains alot:

 

[bigdancehawk]

Stubbornness (not a measure of IQ) has a negative effect on IQ. I know many brilliant people whose heads are made of rock and it gets in their way of better judgement.

True, but I was unable to find a bell curve for rock-headedness.

 

[Steamix]

...
In the Non-profit portion of the Medical care industry - EVERY Group suffers this Same Mentality. We Must have the Cash flow to complete our mission.
....
.

And they will be very very careful to report 'success', some increase or decrease in the fifth or sixth digit behind the decimal point.

Mission complete ?

Never. Ever.

Mission accomplished means 'great job, thanks' and not a single dime funding anymore.

None of these outfits are going to dig their own grave.

Pretend, yes. Shovel the dirt from left to right, but actually succeeding ? Heck, no !

Talking of dirt:

Since it appears to become an all out fight, why not resort to the standards of campaigning - like digging up dirt ?
Mitch et al... the way they are sticking their necks out, it's gotta be worth their while.

Cuz that FDA sticker on products - any product - got nothing to do with protecting public health.

Seems rather like 'fork enough dough in the FDA's direction and you get a license to poison the public...

Hamburg, I think that's just the tip of the iceberg....

One of the greater tragedies of our time is that the original design, "us" (We, the people) versus "them" (those in power), with the media setup as OUR watchdog, has been perverted to an almost inconceivable degree. The media are guilty for their part, but WE are more guilty, for failing to understand that "they" are consciously pitting us against each other.

And with that, I take my (temporary) leave.

(...and the crowd cheered the departure)

In no small part the result of the 'for-free' culture.

Newspapers been dyin left right and center. Newsrooms been downsized to the point of a lone editor just copy-pasting what runs of the big agency's ticker.

Think a sccop like the Watergate could happen today ?

I doubt it.

Newspapers - if any left - just don't have the finances anymore to keep reporters chasing a story for any length of time. Sure subscriptions and OTC sales never covered the whole, but it used to be enough for the papers to retain at least a modicum of independence from advertising money.

Now you get tons of 'news' for free online. Badly researched ( if at all ) click-bait, barely discernible amongst all the banners, side bars, pop-up, scroll windows, etc.etc....
Don't have the link, but it's estimated that as much as 70% of the so-called 'news' are spin pieces, streamed to the papers by PR agencies...

You get what you pay for.
And you get more for what you don't pay for.

 

[Bronze]

True, but I was unable to find a bell curve for rock-headedness.

Might have to go to the Rockwell scale....notice "Rock"well?

Would those fellas on Mt. Rushmore be rockheads?

 

[zoiDman]

I think he means something like what I posted in this thread eight days ago. Here it is again, slightly revised:
Speaking of the Constitution, and trying to get back on topic, if a statute is hopelessly vague, such that people can't figure out what it covers and what it doesn't so that they can adjust their behavior accordingly, the statute may be declared "void for vagueness" and thus unconstitutional. The FSPTCA, particularly as interpreted and applied by the FDA, may be void for vagueness and I am surprised that neither of the lawsuits filed to date has made this attack.

Specifically, The FSPTCA defines "tobacco product" to mean "any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product)."

This definition is badly flawed. When writing a definition, you must not include the defined term in the definition. This is particularly important when writing statutory definitions. It makes the definition circle back on itself.

In this case, when a "tobacco product" is initially limited to things which are made or derived from tobacco, and then they try to expand the definition to include other things, but those other things must also be "of a tobacco product" as initially defined, then it would seem to me that these other things could only qualify as tobacco products if they were likewise made or derived from tobacco. That might be interpreted to exclude such things as atomizers and battery powered mods.

Not Disagreeing with what you are saying.

But if taken in the Context of 2007 when there really Wasn't e-Cigarettes, only Combustible and Smokeless, the Definition of a "Tobacco Product" has more Validity.

Where things went South is when the FDA saw/was told that they could apply this Definition to e-Cigarette Hardware.

The FSPTCA was never written to include e-Cigarette Hardware. Or to Allow FDA Lawyers to Extend such Wording to include any e-Cigarette Product.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Not Disagreeing with what you are saying.

But if taken in the Context of 2007 when there really Wasn't e-Cigarettes, only Combustible and Smokeless, the Definition of a "Tobacco Product" has more Validity.

Where things went South is when the FDA saw/was told that they could apply this Definition to e-Cigarette Hardware.

That's why I said, "The FSPTCA, particularly as interpreted and applied by the FDA, may be void for vagueness..."

 

[Gabiano87]

I agree they papers have had a hard time operating in todays changing digital climate but if you look at conventional MSM such as CNN etc the same can't be said. They are owned by some of the biggest corporations on the planet and have plenty of money. If you go on and say the wrong thing say goodbye to ever getting an invite back again. If you say the 'right' things then say hello to the new contract and pat on the back.

Also there must have been some heat on papers from the gov as the comments section on articles seemed to have disappeared simultaneously using the excuse of internet trolling, misogyny, racism which is a shame as I only read the comments now as the content is garbage.

The mass orgy of government and media needs sorting out real fast. Again money in politics!

 

[Mazinny]

For those of you on facebook, something else to share :

 

[englishmick]

Yeah, I'm going to argue that the media is more guilty.

Because the collective WE put their trust in the media and have been betrayed.
And the collective WE doesn't even know it.

The death of investigative reporting was the death of an informed populace.
Propaganda is what has taken it's place.

Much like a communist country.

Blaming WE means we have to assume that WE have access to the truth.
And generally speaking, the collective WE really doesn't.

The truth, these days, only exists in alternative media outlets.

You can hire experts to manipulate what appears in the media. If we vapers had enough money and organization we could have hired those people and seeded the media with pro-vaping stories. We didn't, but the other side did.

The media goes where the money is.

 

[englishmick]

That said, on the vaping issue alone, I see no way to avoid saying that when it comes to THIS issue, the Democrats are NOT our friends. This issue is too important not to say what should be obvious.

Been seeing a lot of posts here about how one party wants to destroy vaping, so we should all support the other party. 97% of one party are going to raise their hands, or sit on their hands, to abolish vaping, while only 90% of the other party will do the same. Excuse me while I go set out some yard signs to salute the glorious new revolution.

 

[zoiDman]

That's why I said, "The FSPTCA, particularly as interpreted and applied by the FDA, may be void for vagueness..."

I don't see the FSPTCA so much being voided.

But I could see the FDA's Interpretation of what it says as they have Extended it to include e-Cigarette Hardware being Changed.

But this is All Very Far down the Road.