Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Oh Jeez, I hate to break it to you...
But your kitchen sink may indeed be a tobacco product...

Have you ever rinsed your hands in the kitchen sink after getting some juice on them?
Yeah? Well, if so then welcome to the land of tobacco products.

I know you are just kidding but also beating a dead horse isn't gonna make it get up and run.

 

[DC2]

I think that we do understand that and some of us are trying to understand just how they got there. That is why I went back to the "tobacco regs" to try and make some sort of reasonable sense as to how they could rationalize these 'deeming regs' for ecigs. They are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole....it won't fit. It looks like a copy/paste to me, and shows no rational train of thought other than to repeat what was already done.

It seems to me you are giving them too much credit.
Almost as if you do not believe their intentions were necessarily nefarious.

If they REALLY wanted to do what is right..
They could have focused on utilizing the MRTP category as Congress instructed...

Instead, they blew it off completely and purposefully.
I'll be happy to be proven wrong if Swedish Match ever achieves MRTP status.

 

[crxess]

Here is another guy talking about the VTA being in cahoots with RJ Reynolds. Are we killing our own industry by supporting the wrong things? I need you smarties to get on this. LOL. SERIOUSLY!

Trust no youtuber unwilling to show their true face...................
Believe in what real Research shows.

So far, there are concerns over direction it is very early for a concise call on action.
I do not see Groups Publicly Promoting - THIS IS THE ONLY WAY - so I do See videos like this as POSSIBLE ANTZ Deflection to create Detention and Diversion for Goals.

 

[zoiDman]

I think that we do understand that and some of us are trying to understand just how they got there. That is why I went back to the "tobacco regs" to try and make some sort of reasonable sense as to how they could rationalize these 'deeming regs' for ecigs. They are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole....it won't fit. It looks like a copy/paste to me, and shows no rational train of thought other than to repeat what was already done.

The Reasoning behind all this has been made Perfectly Clear.

The Executive Branch of our current Government wants to enact a Regulatory Ban on e-Cigarettes. And is Not Above using any Tactic of Subverted CDC/NIH Science or FDA Overreach to do it.

What we are seeing was Not the Intent of the TCA. It has become a .......ization of what Congress passed in 2009.

 

[Lessifer]

I think that we do understand that and some of us are trying to understand just how they got there. That is why I went back to the "tobacco regs" to try and make some sort of reasonable sense as to how they could rationalize these 'deeming regs' for ecigs. They are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole....it won't fit. It looks like a copy/paste to me, and shows no rational train of thought other than to repeat what was already done.

I know this isn't what we like to hear, but it actually makes perfect sense, to them.

From the view of the FDA nicotine is a drug. However, they weren't allowed to regulate vaping as a drug, and instead were told to regulate it as tobacco. Well, they already had tobacco regulations in place, and those regulations even spell out how to deal with NEW tobacco products. So, that's what they did, they applied those regulations to these new tobacco products. They just happened to ignore everything that would make a sane person realize that these new products don't belong under the tobacco regulations.

And what Some have asked is during Reconciliation of the House and Senate AG Appropriation Bill, could the GF Date (and just the GF Date) be removed from the House Bill leaving the Other provisions?

I think that's possible, but unlikely, as that would hopefully mean it would lose its Republican support.

 

[DC2]

With regards to Ed Wolff/tombaker I'll just make it simple...

He started a lot of threads in his time on ECF, many of which can only be found here...
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/forums/tin-foil-hat-club.842/

If you're interested in what he has to say, there's lots of reading available there.
Just make sure you have absolutely NOTHING better to do.

 

[deucesjack]

What we are seeing is our own government handing over an oligarchy to BT. Plain and simple.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

It seems to me you are giving them too much credit.
Almost as if you do not believe their intentions were necessarily nefarious.

If they REALLY wanted to do what is right..
They could have focused on utilizing the MRTP category as Congress instructed...

Instead, they blew it off completely and purposefully.
I'll be happy to be proven wrong if Swedish Match ever achieves MRTP status.

Oh, I believe whole hardheartedly that they are as evil as they can get. But we need to be able to prove that is what they did not just think or believe that to be true.
What is this pick on Sugar day? I didn't get the memo. jk

 

[Rossum]

I think One Thing that people need to Understand is that the FDA has a Statutory Definition in place NOW for what "Tobacco Products" are. And there is Nothing that Prevents the FDA from using that Definition when it comes to e-Cigarettes / e-Liquids.

One problem. The statutory definition is circular. I believe the FDA knows this, is somewhat embarrassed by it, and is fully expecting some of what they're claiming they're going to do to get slapped down in the courts.

 

[DC2]

What we are seeing is our own government handing over an oligarchy to BT. Plain and simple.

I would argue that what we are seeing is a form of prohibition.
An elimination of effective products in order to ensure the status quo.

Only the crumbs of what's left will be going to Big Tobacco.
And it remains to be seen what they will ultimately do once those crumbs are in hand.

They may flush them down the toilet.
Or they may try to squeeze some profit out of them.

 

[zoiDman]

...

I think that's possible, but unlikely, as that would hopefully mean it would lose its Republican support.

I dunno how Likely it Is or Isn't. Sometimes Support will Evaporate for something when a Concession is made in Unrelated Area.

If Support for something like say Military Spending was offered inlue of Dropping the GF Amendment, what would happen?

 

[DC2]

I think that's possible, but unlikely, as that would hopefully mean it would lose its Republican support.

If Republicans REALLY care that much about vaping, then we are golden.
I seriously doubt they care that much about vaping.

There is an effort underway to strike the Cole-Bishop amendment.
I have a hard time seeing a huge battle over it.

I suspect it will be eliminated.
I really, really, really, really hope I am so very wrong.

 

[zoiDman]

One problem. The statutory definition is circular. I believe the FDA knows this, is somewhat embarrassed by it, and is fully expecting some of what they're claiming they're going to do to get slapped down in the courts.

When you say the Statutory Definition is "Circular", what exactly do you mean?

And how might it Benefit some of what we are facing?

 

[Lessifer]

I dunno how Likely it Is or Isn't. Sometimes Support will Evaporate for something when a Concession is made in Unrelated Area.

If Support for something like say Military Spending was offered inlue of Dropping the GF Amendment, what would happen?

If Republicans REALLY care that much about vaping, then we are golden.
I seriously doubt they care that much about vaping.

Their is an effort underway to strike the Cole-Bishop amendment.
I have a hard time seeing a huge battle over it.

I suspect it will be eliminated.
I really, really, really, really hope I so very wrong.

Yeah, that was my shot at optimism for the day.

 

[deucesjack]

Couldn't disagree more. Vaping as we know it will disappear. There will be a thriving black market but only for those in the know. BT will control the majority of the vaping world and unless you're an old school vaper you will vape the way they want you to. This is all about greed, money, politics, and control. Vapers need to wake up and start voting for representatives that are for less government innvolvment in THEIR LIVES.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk

 

[DC2]

Yeah, that was my shot at optimism for the day.

May I offer a shot of this instead?

If you're not into shots, it's also really good for sipping.
A good tequila beats all comers.


Or at least makes them forget why they came in the first place.

 

[Rossum]

When you say the Statutory Definition is "Circular", what exactly do you mean?

The term "tobacco product" means any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product.

And how might it Benefit some of what we are facing?

Removing the circularity would remove their authority to regulate anything that isn't actually made or derived from tobacco, such as zero-nic liquids and all hardware.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

One problem. The statutory definition is circular. I believe the FDA knows this, is somewhat embarrassed by it, and is fully expecting some of what they're claiming they're going to do to get slapped down in the courts.

Exactly---a catch 22 if you will. Embarrassed? Doubt it. They are just waiting to see if 'the people' are as dumb as they think we are. Since they were shot down before, it is reasonable to think they would be again so yeah they probably do expect something......

 

[zoiDman]

Removing the circularity would remove their authority to regulate anything that isn't actually made or derived from tobacco, such as zero-nic liquids and all hardware.

OK.... I guess the Circular part is Confusing me?

Whether or Not the FDA has Legal Authority to Regulate Anything that is Not Made from or Derived from Tobacco Plants will probably go to the SC.

So it will be Interesting (understatement of the Decade) to see who will Fill Scalia's (and Ginsberg's) seat.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

May I offer a shot of this instead?

If you're not into shots, it's also really good for sipping.
A good tequila beats all comers.


Or at least makes them forget why they came in the first place.

You forgot the salt.