Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Lessifer]

Your absolutely correct, life is fatal. I happen to watch how much candy, soda and other junk food my youngest consumes. Mcdonalds is a treat every once in awhile and I rarely if ever offer him a hit on my mod .

We all bring our own ideas with us to this subject form our own experiences. I just believe we shouldn't suggest that any kid anywhere at any time should have the "right" to vape.

I don't see it as kids have the right to vape, I see it as the government doesn't have the right to restrict behavior without reason. They haven't provided a valid reason.

 

[Max-83]

n fact the UK RCP never quantified that 5% or attributed it to any known harm. It was a WAG of the unknown. Yet now everyone quotes that 5% as some sort of science, which it is decidedly not. It was the political part of that report.

That's the point. You wag so as not to paint yourself into a corner. As much as it displeases some people the debate on potential harm from vaping will continue for some time.

Seven ( or so) years of "no reported problems" is not enough to tell the story. Vaping started as a smoking alternative for current smokers and that's how I use it. Maybe that taints my view but I would never encourage someone who has never smoked to pickup vaping.

 

[Lessifer]

Don't know if this has been posted here before.

Lorann's has announced that they will not be submitting their flavor ingredients to the FDA flavor masterfile. As far as i know Cappella's and Flavourart have said that they will. I haven't heard anything from the other flavor manufacturers.

http://lorannoils.com/sites/default/files/LorAnn May 2016 Statement Regarding FDA Tobacco Control Act.pdf

It's going to be very difficult for some e-liquid manufacturers to meet the requirements to stay in business until August 2018, let alone beyond that.

 

[Max-83]

I see it as the government doesn't have the right to restrict behavior without reason. They haven't provided a valid reason.

Ok Less, we really are on the same side , don't wanna go to far with the debate.
You have to draw the line somewhere so where is the line on kids and vaping?

 

[zoiDman]

I notice that the 95 Percentile is used a Lot in these Discussions.

How Exactly was the 95% Determined?

 

[Lessifer]

Ok Less, we really are on the same side , don't wanna go to far with the debate.
You have to draw the line somewhere so where is the line on kids and vaping?

MY line is, it's up to the parents. That doesn't mean that a shop should require parent's permission, it means, it's up to the parents to restrict the behavior of their own children as they see fit. Under a certain age, children will not have the means to purchase anything vape related, so let's call a spade a spade and say we're talking about teens. If you don't want your teen vaping, make that known to your teen, and if they don't listen to you, that is between you and them. Just like dating, or going out late at night, or any other behavior.

 

[Lessifer]

I notice that the 95 Percentile is used a Lot in these Discussions.

How Exactly was the 95% Determined?

I prefer to use the number that is more representative of actual comparative harm to date, 99.999%

 

[zoiDman]

I prefer to use the number that is more representative of actual comparative harm to date, 99.999%

OK.

But if we are just going to pull numbers Out of the Blue, why not 98.367% ?

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

MY line is, it's up to the parents. That doesn't mean that a shop should require parent's permission, it means, it's up to the parents to restrict the behavior of their own children as they see fit. Under a certain age, children will not have the means to purchase anything vape related, so let's call a spade a spade and say we're talking about teens. If you don't want your teen vaping, make that known to your teen, and if they don't listen to you, that is between you and them. Just like dating, or going out late at night, or any other behavior.

It's weird how, sometimes, the truth doesn't seem like the truth at first glance.

But, that's the thing with the truth; the moment you thoughtfully consider it, it becomes so apparent that any denial of it is purely willful.

 

[Max-83]

MY line

There ya have it! Your line. Now, we don't all share the same line cause we're all different people with different points of reference. All good, we're still a community with a common interest and goal...save vaping.

 

[crxess]

I wish people would truly think about why they believe teens shouldn't be allowed to vape. Do any of those reasons have anything to do with something other than an extension of fear of cigarettes?

Yes, as a Parent, I only want(ed) my Children doing things I was aware and approved of. The What never mattered - the responsibility to was:
Parent to teach
Child to learn
Obedience was a requirement.

As to LAW - Government is suppose to protect us from Enemies, not ourselves. Sadly we seem to be missing well developed Parents to pick up the slack.

I am likely several generations older than some here and have a much different Picture of Correct than those. Thus is Human conceptual decline.

Many here may consider themselves Socially misfit only on the Topic of Vaping or even Smoking and are otherwise Complicit with Status Quo.
WHY is that? It is responsible to challenge every change made in Society. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Someone will always have their perfect argument for the Change............but is is really the Right one, or were they just good enough to convince you not to ask Why, or what if, and simply fall in line?

There once was a time when Business closed down to allow Families weeks to enjoy summering together. Now it is Fall in line and if needed Saturday and Sunday shifts to Feed the Money Machines.

Not only Your Rights, but YOUR Responsibilities are steadily being Stripped away.

Where do we Draw our lines, Really grow up and take back what which has been stripped from us for PROFITS and the Prosperity of others?

 

[VNeil]

That's the point. You wag so as not to paint yourself into a corner. As much as it displeases some people the debate on potential harm from vaping will continue for some time.

Seven ( or so) years of "no reported problems" is not enough to tell the story. Vaping started as a smoking alternative for current smokers and that's how I use it. Maybe that taints my view but I would never encourage someone who has never smoked to pickup vaping.

Fear Of The Unknown is something individuals should deal with. When government regulators justify industry crippling regulation based on Fear Of The Unknown then the war is totally lost. You have abdicated your last shred of personal freedom.

Freedom is not free. There is a price for liberty. Sometimes that is an assumption of risk, In terms of what your masters allow you to assume.

I'm amazed at how many here are prepared to so casually abandon even the last shreds of libertarian ideals.

Keeping in mind that there is no evidence that a single vaper has been harmed by flavorings.

 

[Mazinny]

I notice that the 95 Percentile is used a Lot in these Discussions.

How Exactly was the 95% Determined?

I prefer to use the number that is more representative of actual comparative harm to date, 99.999%

OK.

But if we are just going to pull numbers Out of the Blue, why not 98.367% ?

Yeah the 95% number is meaningless and based on pretty bad science. I can't find the study they used to reach that number, but it's there. Carl Philips in one of his earlier blog posts, tears apart that study, if you care to search for it in his site. Here's his latest blog post about the 95% number :

Saying e-cigarettes are “95% less harmful” is a very bad idea (part 143 of 10,000)

 

[coldgin96]

That's great, I don't belong to the church of GG.

I know that my opinions do not coincide with the majority of the public face of vaping. I still believe I'm right. I still believe that every time a vaper repeats "of course I support age restrictions" or "that label/flavor is just asking for it" that the opposition wins a little bit.

I like him 'cause he has a KISS picture on the wall.

 

[coldgin96]

T

At least 95%.

Can you name one thing that you consume that is harmless?

What is the relative harm of a candy bar, or a can of soda, or riding a skateboard, or using hair dye, or eating mcdonald's, or etc.?

Tofu.

 

[coldgin96]

I wonder if GG realizes that some might see a tattooed hipster with a Transformers poster and Storm Trooper helmet as someone who is promoting vaping to minors?

He could be the new Stephen Dorff.

What about the KISS poster? Kids AND old people like them...

EDIT: I'm 49 and a Star Wars fan. Have all the DVD's. Saw the first movie in 1977 when I was Ten. My Grandfather took me. He used to take me to James Bond movies, too. So there.

 

[Max-83]

Fear Of The Unknown is something individuals should deal with. When government regulators justify industry crippling regulation based on Fear Of The Unknown then the war is totally lost. You have abdicated your last shred of personal freedom.

Freedom is not free. There is a price for liberty. Sometimes that is an assumption of risk, In terms of what your masters allow you to assume.

I'm amazed at how many here are prepared to so casually abandon even the last shreds of libertarian ideals.

Keeping in mind that there is no evidence that a single vaper has been harmed by flavorings.

Neil, hope your not suggesting that I'm in fear of vaping since i am currently,and likely for some time to come, a vaper. No fear of vaping here, fear of smoking past my 37yr of use, yes.

Still, thats a choice I have made between what I knew was killing me and what I believe won't. Jury is still out on what may, and I emphasis may, be potentially harmful from vaping.

 

[Kent C]

About half of teen vapers don't even use nicotine.

At the AEI conference on participant said 70% which reflects my own observations at a local shop where I have hung out for hours on many occasions.

 

[VNeil]

Neil, hope your not suggesting that I'm in fear of vaping since i am currently,and likely for some time to come, a vaper. No fear of vaping here, fear of smoking past my 37yr of use, yes.

Still, thats a choice I have made between what I knew was killing me and what I believe won't. Jury is still out on what may, and I emphasis may, be potentially harmful from vaping.

I was just making a statement that anyone that thinks there should be any regulations based on "potential" but unknown harm deserves the prison they consign themselves to.

 

[Kent C]

I didn't say I believed vaping to be harmless.
I was implying that I believe vaping flavorless to be pretty much harmless.

Vaping various flavors may or may not be harmless.
At this point I couldn't really say, as there are SO MANY flavors out there.

Regardless, my real point is that I favor free choice.
Especially when there is no proof of harm.

Just as a few had said in the AEI seminar, that vaping should be encouraged - ie not taxed as Sally Satel said, so as to get more people vaping. With the same type of reasoning, if it is flavors that attract teens to vaping, I'm all for it. They WILL experiment ...and rather have them experimenting with vaping than smoking. Although I'd also leave that to their free choice.

The flavor thing - also mentioned in studies as well as the AEI seminar is what keep adults vaping as well. Which is why they should leave flavors alone.