Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

GunMonkeyINTL

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sonicdsl

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zoiDman

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Well it looks like the FDA/CTP is marching right along.

CTP.jpg


Unified Agenda-TRACK

I wonder what this will Entail?

"Abstract: FDA is proposing requirements that govern the methods used in, and the facilities and controls used for, the pre-production design validation, manufacture, packing, and storage of tobacco products."

View Rule
 

Lessifer

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Well it looks like the FDA/CTP is marching right along.

View attachment 574889

Unified Agenda-TRACK

I wonder what this will Entail?

"Abstract: FDA is proposing requirements that govern the methods used in, and the facilities and controls used for, the pre-production design validation, manufacture, packing, and storage of tobacco products."

View Rule
Only took them 3 years, past the original 4 year deadline...
 

Kent C

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I wonder what this will Entail?

Some of this is 'older' stuff. The "intended use" is the same as I referred to in the nitrous oxide case with balloons, where the balloon vendor was charged even though he sold no nitrous oxide...from my earlier posts. The one doc:

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-09-25/pdf/2015-24313.pdf#page=1

.... spells out the definition (and refers to some of the cases formerly mentioned). (my emphasis)

2. How Intended Use Is Determined In determining a product’s intended use, the Agency may look to ‘‘any . . . relevant source,’’ including but not limited to the product’s labeling, promotional claims, and advertising (see, e.g., Action on Smoking and Health v. Harris, 655 F.2d 236, 239 (D.C. Cir. 1980); United States v. Storage Spaces Designated Nos. ‘‘8’’ and ‘‘49,’’ 777 F.2d 1363, 1366 (9th Cir. 1985), Hanson v. United States, 417 F. Supp. 30, 35 (D. Minn.), aff’d, 540 F.2d 947 (8th Cir. 1976)). For example, FDA may take into account any claim or statement made by or on behalf of a manufacturer that explicitly or implicitly promotes a product for a particular use (see, e.g., §201.128 (drugs), §801.4 (devices)). To establish a product’s intended use, FDA is not bound by the manufacturer or distributor’s subjective claims of intent, but rather can consider objective evidence, which may include a variety of direct and circumstantial evidence. Thus, FDA may also take into account any circumstances surrounding the distribution of the product or the context in which it is sold (see id.; see also U.S. v. Travia, 180 F.Supp.2d 115, 119 (D.D.C. 2001)). In the context of medical products, generally, circumstantial evidence often ensures that FDA is able to hold accountable firms that attempt to evade FDA medical product regulation by avoiding making express claims about their products. As FDA has previously stated, however, the Agency would not regard a firm as intending an unapproved new use for an approved or cleared medical product based solely on the firm’s knowledge that such product was being prescribed or used by doctors for such use (Ref. 5). Thus, when a product made or derived from tobacco is marketed or distributed for an intended use that falls within the drug/device definitions, it would be regulated as a medical product, subject to the limitations discussed further in this document. Courts have recognized that products made or derived from tobacco marketed with ‘‘disease’’ claims and certain ‘‘structure/function’’ claims are drugs (see United States v. 46 Cartons . . . Containing Fairfax Cigarettes, 113 F.Supp. 336, 337, 338 (D. N.J. 1953) (cigarettes marketed for the prevention of respiratory diseases); United States v. 354 Bulk Cartons . . . Trim Reducing- Aid Cigarettes, 178 F.Supp. 847, 851 (D. N.J. 1959) (cigarettes marketed for weight reduction)).


3. Intended Use As noted in section I.B.2 of this document, intended use may be determined from any relevant source and is not based solely on claims made in a product’s labeling or advertising materials. For purposes of illustration, however, claims such as ‘‘treatment of tobacco dependence,’’ ‘‘wean yourself off of nicotine,’’ ‘‘for people who wish to quit smoking,’’ ‘‘stop smoking aid,’’ ‘‘prevent relapse,’’ or ‘‘stay quit’’ generally would fall within the intended uses described in proposed §1100.5(a).10 Claims such as ‘‘to reduce withdrawal symptoms,’’ ‘‘helps reduce symptoms including things like [list of withdrawal symptoms]’’ and ‘‘relieve withdrawal symptoms while you are on the plane’’ would be associated with an intended use for relief of nicotine withdrawal symptoms, and would also fall within the intended uses described in proposed §1100.5(a).

Basically any claim by a vendor that says "you can reduce your nicotine level" would be suspect. Saying that the eliquid comes in 24, 18, 12, 6, 3 and 0. would not likely be suspect, unless the customer then says "So... I can reduce the level of nicotine myself?" and the vendor says "Yes" rather than repeating what is available. :facepalm:
 
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johnny hotsauce

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Lessifer

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That's a Good Thing right?

;)
Well, it took them four years to craft the manufacturing practices guidelines on the input of 13 cigarette manufacturers, then another 3 years to decide to come out with a final rule. How much input do you think e-liquid manufacturers have had?
 

zoiDman

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... How much input do you think e-liquid manufacturers have had?

I would say Quite a Bit. But those e-Liquid Manufactures you are referring to is BT. And BT will push for what is Good for BT and what is Bad for anyone else.

BTW - The "Good Thing" was in reference to the amount of Time. Not in regards with the what was being done.
 

Lessifer

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I would say Quite a Bit. But those e-Liquid Manufactures you are referring to is BT. And BT will push for what is Good for BT and what is Bad for anyone else.

BTW - The "Good Thing" was in reference to the amount of Time. Not in regards with the what was being done.
Yeah, they're definitely not speedy. So, by the time there is guidance on how vapor products should be manufactured, they'll have the field whittled down to the 5 or 6 brands that they want to deal with, as those will be the ones likely to submit PMTA.
 

zoiDman

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Yeah, they're definitely not speedy. So, by the time there is guidance on how vapor products should be manufactured, they'll have the field whittled down to the 5 or 6 brands that they want to deal with, as those will be the ones likely to submit PMTA.

Yeah... Barring some Judicial Action(s), I would say that is the way things will play out.
 

YoursTruli

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Well, it took them four years to craft the manufacturing practices guidelines on the input of 13 cigarette manufacturers, then another 3 years to decide to come out with a final rule. How much input do you think e-liquid manufacturers have had?

I would say Quite a Bit. But those e-Liquid Manufactures you are referring to is BT. And BT will push for what is Good for BT and what is Bad for anyone else.

BTW - The "Good Thing" was in reference to the amount of Time. Not in regards with the what was being done.

Oh, I don't know... I would have to say every eliquid manufacturer that spoke to the FDA at the workshops had a lot of input not just BT... how else do you think they knew exactly what all they needed to control/regulate and be able to effectively ban it.
 

Lessifer

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Oh, I don't know... I would have to say every eliquid manufacturer that spoke to the FDA at the workshops had a lot of input not just BT... how else do you think they knew exactly what all they needed to control/regulate and be able to effectively ban it.
Not quite the input I was thinking of, but yeah.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is establishing a public docket to obtain input on recommendations for regulations on good manufacturing practice for tobacco products that were submitted to FDA by a group of 13 tobacco companies (tobacco companies’ recommendations). FDA is establishing this docket to provide an opportunity for all interested parties to comment on the tobacco companies’ recommendations and to share information that will improve FDA’s understanding of the tobacco industry and its manufacturing operations.
 

zoiDman

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Oh, I don't know... I would have to say every eliquid manufacturer that spoke to the FDA at the workshops had a lot of input not just BT... how else do you think they knew exactly what all they needed to control/regulate and be able to effectively ban it.

Oh don't get me Wrong. I'm sure that that Companies have told the FDA Many things. And have Presented thousands of pages of Documents.

But how much did the FDA Listen? And how much of it was just the Fulfillment of a Mandatory Requirement to illicit comments from Stakeholders?

Seems like the FDA is Hell Bent on making it Prohibitively Expense for all but a Few to compete in an e-Cigarette Market. I see No Reason why they will Not do the same with regards to Plant Procedures, Storage and Manufacturing of Tobacco Products.
 

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Something sticks in my mind that during the entire process, there were plenty of "workshops" where BT was the only participant allowed to attend. It's buried in one of the FDA threads around here someplace while that entire circus was still in progress.
 

Lessifer

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Something sticks in my mind that during the entire process, there were plenty of "workshops" where BT was the only participant allowed to attend. It's buried in one of the FDA threads around here someplace while that entire circus was still in progress.
This is going to sound like a dig against e-liquid manufacturers, and it isn't one, at least not a heartfelt one. I have to wonder how many e-liquid makers seriously pursued time and access to the FDA. I know CASAA met with them, and I believe AEMSA did too.

I get it, the family owned and operated B&M that mixes their own liquid doesn't know how to go about meeting with the FDA, and seriously, who thinks they should? However, they are considered by the FDA to be a manufacturer just like Altria.

We've spent years treating vaping like it's a craft industry, like baking artisan cookies, because really that's what it should be, but that's not the reality of the space it resides in.

Sorry for the rant.
 

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The reason why it sticks in my head that BT were the only participants allowed is because CASAA was denied the opportunity to speak at some of the workshops. I used to listen in on the monthly "talks" that CASAA gave, and that was often mentioned.

The FDA went into this knowing full well what they intended to do, and how they were going to do it. I don't think it would have mattered at all if the e-liquid manufacturers were given a larger say.
 

Lessifer

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The reason why it sticks in my head that BT were the only participants allowed is because CASAA was denied the opportunity to speak at some of the workshops. I used to listen in on the monthly "talks" that CASAA gave, and that was often mentioned.

The FDA went into this knowing full well what they intended to do, and how they were going to do it. I don't think it would have mattered at all if the e-liquid manufacturers were given a larger say.
I think you're right, it wouldn't have mattered, but maybe less of them would be so surprised by what happened?

I think it says a lot that one of the most active advocates, if not the most active, is the Consumer advocacy group. Why do I see vendors asking for regulatory advice on the CASAA fb page? CASAA is great, and some vendors have been involved in the fight for years and some are stepping up to the challenge, but so many haven't.

Again, this has no real point, and it's not meant as an attack on vendors. I just hope people are learning. Even if we win in a big way, I don't believe things will go back to the way they have been. If the industry survives, it will have to be smarter.
 

YoursTruli

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The reason why it sticks in my head that BT were the only participants allowed is because CASAA was denied the opportunity to speak at some of the workshops. I used to listen in on the monthly "talks" that CASAA gave, and that was often mentioned.

The FDA went into this knowing full well what they intended to do, and how they were going to do it. I don't think it would have mattered at all if the e-liquid manufacturers were given a larger say.

Yes

....to keep in mind this all began before Dr. Robert M. Califf (who's salary at Duke was underwritten partly by funding from large drugmakers such as Eli Lilly and Merck, and drug companies also helped fund research studies he oversaw) took charge... when the former Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Dr. Margaret Hamburg was in charge and as we all know now she is charged in a federal law suit with conspiracy, racketeering & colluding to conceal deadly drug dangers under the federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations law (RICO) law... IN cahoots with her husband, Peter Brown, an executive in the hedge-fund Renaissance Technologies, with collusion, conspiracy and racketeering alongside the pharmaceutical giant, Johnson & Johnson (the company behind nicotine patch, gum, lozenge, mini lozenges) to conceal those deadly risks — to protect their financial stake.
 

DC2

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....to keep in mind this all began before Dr. Robert M. Califf (who's salary at Duke was underwritten partly by funding from large drugmakers such as Eli Lilly and Merck, and drug companies also helped fund research studies he oversaw) took charge... when the former Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Dr. Margaret Hamburg was in charge and as we all know now she is charged in a federal law suit with conspiracy, racketeering & colluding to conceal deadly drug dangers under the federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations law (RICO) law...
Here's to hoping that Dr. Califf gets the same treatment.
Assuming, of course, he is pretty much guilty of the similar types of corruption.
 

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