Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[blondeambition3]

I think I'm gonna be sick.....

 

[salemgold]

This is so dumb, how can they put our vaping gadgets near tobacco products?!
This is all just a greed, they just want the money that vape companies are making,
they care about health? HELL NO, they don't give a crap about people lives, all they care about is find a way to get money!
They don't care that vapers ( ex smokers ) feeling huge improvements in health after switching to vaping, it is obviously better than cigarettes and NOT a tobacco product! Tobacco is a damn plant, where the hell did they see us putting plants into our mods ?! Why don't they make wine glasses Alcohol product? Or any glass at all, greedy sneaks!

Now i really hope that vape industry will survive and will change into third type of things instead of that tobacco ....
If not were going to have hard time buying mods that will cost starting of 500$, and who knows what will happen to VG/PG Nicotine and flavorings when buying from different place so nobody know that its gonna be used for DIY.

ugh im so ...... off,.

Take a long, deep breath. We are going to get through this. I don't believe for an instant that these regulations will stand as they are now written.

 

[crxess]

I'm pretty sure nobody was "commercially marketing" nicotine base back then.
I don't think anybody was even thinking about DIY at that time.

............ and @SmokeyJoe

Hope this adds some light:

1950 - 1951 Yearbook of Agriculture -Production and Use of Nicotine

http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND43894162/PDF

Two subsidized diversion programs in 1943 and 1944, however, used low and medium grades of surplus leaf to obtain enough nicotine for food production for the war effort.

So, Nicotine has been extracted and in commercial use since at least 1943, no?

 

[TVC70]

Take a long, deep breath. We are going to get through this. I don't believe for an instant that these regulations will stand as they are now written.

I tend to agree. Vaping will never again be the largely laissez-faire paradise of free minds and free markets that it has been up till now, but I do think that some degree of reason will eventually make its way back into the debate. The road ahead for us vapers will be rough, to be sure, but I'm not ready to believe that vaping is dead, with BT-produced cigalikes being our only options in the future. We've suffered a major blow, no doubt, but the war's not over yet.

 

[julpin]

I am not an American but the repercutions this regulations can bring the world vaping scene down. I cannot believe that some are saying that doing manifestations etc will not work. I disagree, you now have LGBT rights and gay people getting married LEGALLY in big part because of manifestations. Can`t believe the gay community has more balls than the vape community. A world in which people of the same sex can get married legally and using a device that save your life is illegal is just UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

 

[julpin]

Like I said I am not an American, and can see from my country how the United States is not the same anymore shrinking and shrinking by the minute, having Hillary clinton for presidential candidate is a disgrace even from thousands of miles I can see this. I still have faith in the REAL AMERICANS, the ones that have been respected from every corners of the world. I am sure you guys the REAL AMERICANS will figure this out, with bravery, intelligence and determination which REAL AMERICANS are known for.

 

[bigdancehawk]

I couldnt be more unhappy with the makers of this documentary. The movie has been done for awhile now and they could have released it to every streaming service worldwide and make their money on it.

Instead, while all this is going on the only thing they are concerned with is finding "funding for premier dates" and "movie festivals" because they actually think documentary awards and money are due to them for their work. I got a lengthly newsletter from them two days ago about their "plans" and wrote to them only to be told that Im wrong.

They could have helped to save a billion lives now instead they want to be awarded and profit off them. Imo, they have lost my support for good. Its about principles to us, not money and awards for them.

I think if you want to see the film any time soon, you'll have to go to New Zealand.

 

[sparkky1]

............ and @SmokeyJoe

Hope this adds some light:

1950 - 1951 Yearbook of Agriculture -Production and Use of Nicotine

http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND43894162/PDF



So, Nicotine has been extracted and in commercial use since at least 1943, no?

Yes, for pesticides

 

[crxess]

General Education

Process of extracting nicotine from tobacco:

Patent US2128043 - Process of extracting nicotine from tobacco

The commercial Nicotine was available in the Market as early as 1910. In addition demand for tobacco control, recent introduction of Nicotine based smoking cessation products in the global market, current research findings on the use of nicotine derivatives in the treatment of brain related disorders, has renewed interest in Nicotine derivatives.

Nicotine and its Derivatives from Tobacco Waste

 

[zoiDman]

Did this answer your question?

https://www.federalregister.gov/uploads/2011/01/the_rulemaking_process.pdf

That is the way I have Always understood it. And that is what this Charts lists also...

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/reginfo/Regmap/regmap.pdf

So if all this is going to be Sent to Congress, and if they have any Power to effect changes to it, it would seem like it would be a Good Idea for Every Vaper/B&M Owner/Web Retailer to do a Massive Drive to get people to Contact there Federal Reps in mass.

Heck, people should be Contacting the Reps anyway.

 

[crxess]

A bit of History on the Patch and Nicotine - Marketed in 1992:

UCLA pharmacologist invented nicotine patch

 

[Andromendous]

I think we all need to spread this video, i think he has the right idea about what we can do. Send it to every business you can.

 

[Bob Chill]

I think maybe this is what they will begin enforcing...
Retailer Overview of FDA Regulations for Selling Tobacco Products
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rules for Sales of E-Cigarettes and Other Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems (ENDS)

Some examples of ENDS include e-cigarettes, vape pens, e-hookahs, e-cigars, personal vaporizers and electronic pipes.

• Check photo ID of everyone under age 27 who attempts to purchase e-cigarettes or other ENDS.
• Only sell e-cigarettes and other ENDS to customers age 18 and older.
• Do NOT give away free samples of e-cigarettes or other ENDS, including any of their components or parts.
• Do NOT sell e-cigarettes or other ENDS in a vending machine unless in an adult-only facility.
• Beginning in 2018, do NOT sell or distribute e-cigarettes or other ENDS without a health warning statement on the package.
• Beginning in 2018, do NOT display advertisements for e-cigarettes or other ENDS without a health warning statement.
• If you operate a vape shop that mixes or prepares liquid nicotine or nicotine-containing e-liquids, or creates or modifies any type of ENDS, you are considered a tobacco product manufacturer and must comply with all of the legal requirements for tobacco product manufacturers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe the two most important ones there are...
--Vendors will need to find a way to charge for juice tasting
--Vape shops will not "technically" be allowed to build coils any more

That's how it looks to me anyway.

I think tasting is easy to stay in compliance. When I was travelling alot for my job a while back we used to stay in business hotels that had all kinds of neat perks like free happy hour apps and beer/wine. However, in OH it was illegal to give away free alcohol. So they had a cup by the keg that said 10 cent drafts. When I put a buck in the cup the hostess laughed and said nobody cares if you pay or not and explained the law.

I not saying vape shops should be *that* lax about it. But they could just charge a dime for unlimited tasting and ring it up for a paper trail. Heck, they could charge a penny and be in compliance.

 

[crxess]

Nicotine
The chemical nicotine is an addictive component of cigarettes. The body develops a physical, as well as psychological, craving for nicotine. The patch helps satisfy this craving while the smoker is attempting to quit. Nicotine is well suited for transepidermal delivery because it is a liquid which is known to penetrate skin easily. In fact, there are documented cases of tobacco workers suffering from nicotine overdose as a result of handling raw tobacco leaves, a condition known as Green Tobacco Sickness. Depending on the type of patch, the amount of nicotine compound employed varies between 5% and 50%. The drug may be used in its pure form, or it may be linked with other chemicals entities such as hydrochloride, dihydrochloride, sulfate, tartrate, bitartarate, zinc chloride, and salicylate to form derivatives.


Read more: How nicotine patch is made - material, used, processing, components, product, Raw Materials
OR
PG/VG/ Flavoring

* ..........and is that not the best Double Speak ever written!!!!

Nicotine is ADDICTIVE........So use it to Become NOT ADDICTED
Nicotine is Nicotine

The Dose makes the Poison!!!

 

[retired1]

Folks, there's a lot of drug talk creeping into this thread and it's not allowed. It's not open for debate and it's not permitted.

Forum Rules

Why we don't allow drug talk

 

[Bronze]

Folks, there's a lot of drug talk creeping into this thread and it's not allowed. It's not open for debate and it's not permitted.

Forum Rules

Why we don't allow drug talk

Legal drugs too (as in pharmaceuticals)?

 

[Jman8]

Technically, being part of the FSTPCA does mean that the FDA cannot outright ban a product, as the law specifically excludes that option.

Of course, there are other ways to get rid a product category without outright banning it, which is what they've done here. My guess is that the FDA will not approve a single PMTA for an vapor product over the next 3 years. So after that, they will all be gone. "Banned", but not outright banned, if you catch my drift.

I catch your drift and see it as inevitable now that a de facto ban will take out 99.9999999% of the product. Not trying to exaggerate on the amount of product that will be taken out, when one realizes that 15 million flavors exist, then add in all the teeny tiny items that make for hardware. Much of it will be around in another form, but as eCig marketing goes, it will be subject to de facto ban.

I think there are two courses of action for us to take to win the larger war. Either we fight FSPTCA and seek to have that whole act undone. I see this as ultimately the best course of action but the one that is probably nearly impossible to get enough people on board. Or we seek to get eCigs as forbidden from being regulated under FSPTCA. Both of these could've been done 5 years ago. Right about now, the latter is our only recourse apart from legal stuff, wishful/hopeful political stuff (we are in election year) or long term fighting via black market politics.

I'm 90% sure the black market fight is what will end up occurring. I don't think that will go on for too long, but not sure how it will resolve itself.

If we somehow are successful in getting eCigs divorced from FSPTCA, it will be treated as a victory. I'm sure I'd rejoice under that scenario. But part of the reason I brought up the earlier thread is that was previously done. It was seen as a great thing that eCigs would be regulated under FSPTCA because they couldn't be outright banned. So, if not under FSPTCA, we'd have to think that while we are rejoicing that our opposition will be actively seeking the next way it can be regulated (out of existence).

Most of me thinks we are in territory of 'that ship has sailed' and whatever political fight to get eCigs away from FSPTCA there is, it will be saving scraps, while most of it will stay under FSPTCA. And as legal smoking already has a black market itself, I really do think that is the direction this is heading. Got too many on our side who want 'reasonable regulations' and favor ban on minor use for it to go in a drastically different direction at this point.

 

[buffaloguy]

I still have the big question as to whether or not ALL imports of juice and devices will start being seized in 90 days? My understanding is that in order for a product to still be sold it must be proven (by the FDA's new standards) to have existed in the market before cutoff. Otherwise S.O.L.

I can absolutely see the FDA banning and siezing imports thru customs or US Mail "until such time as they can be proven" or substancial equivalence/grandfather apps have been submitted. The burden of proof in on the seller/manufacturer. The FDA can tie up everything in red tape for months if not years. As far as they are concerned if its new, its not in compliance. Small vendors cant afford to battle a move like that. The FDA's past actions (njoy) say that this is their very likely course of action in 90 days. They did it before.

I know foriegn imports do not have to comply with US law, but they can make it nearly impossible for retailers to get them. So when the stock in US shops dries out, the FDA swoops in and shuts the ones that sell USA made goods in the end who have not yet complied.

I want to believe Im wrong here. Someone more knowledgeable than I who has read it all please chime in.

 

[Jman8]

And I've got something to add to the justifiably derided political discussion that's been taking place here.

I'm a conservative - no puzzle there- but I can't stand Donald Trump. I had already resigned myself to not voting this cycle.

BUT...to the point that an earlier poster made about needing "outside the box ideas", Trump may have something to offer us here.

Trump is a populist, and thrives on going against the grain, even, I believe, when it doesn't match his actual beliefs. Trump needs voters, and will get behind causes that he thinks will win him voters, and be VERY vocal about it.

We should consider modifying a copy of the CASAA petition we've all been signing, to make it look like it was a plea to Trump to stand up for us, and then send it directly to his campaign.

We know that Hillary is going to take the "it's about the kids" road, but there's a good chance that Trump could be turned on to frothing at the mouth about this government overreach, and making it a campaign issue.

I'm still not sure I could ever vote for him, but getting him to trumpet about it would get the cause some air time, and make some allegiances in the right wing constituency.

If we are going to pretend there is a political fight to be had, I do think Trump is our best bet. I'm all up for Democrats on this site seeing if Hillary would bend and go with what we all identify as the proper public health position with regards to eCigs. If anyone reading this truly thinks Hillary is a possibility, please move on this and let us know how it works out.

Me, I think there is between 0% and .00000001% chance that Hillary helps the pro-vaping cause. I'd love to shown that I'm mistaken and it's at least 20% chance that she's willing to help in the political fight.

I think due to the partisan divide, and Trump being presumptive nominee, that if the chances are 99% likely Hillary will support FDA, then theoretically, there's a 99% chance that Trump would support pro-vaping. Sure, that is very wishful thinking, but this is just me emphasizing the partisan divide that is very visible on pretty much all topics.

I do think there's a good 20% chance Trump would fight for pro-vaping cause because it is business related and because he goes against the grain with what Washington establishment seems to think is best way to proceed on matters.

If Trump today said he will fight for pro-vapers, I think he'd get at least 2 million more people in his camp. It could turn out to be a campaign lie, that's for sure, but all the stuff any of these politicians claim in campaigns fits into that category. It would just be awesome to see it come up and to have Trump and Hillary speak to it. Unless the partisan divide doesn't exist for this particular political item, I think one of them would appear to support pro-vaping, and the other would appear to stand opposed.

So, I think it would be sensible to have a CTA that floods Trump with lots of tweets about this being a significant concern for some voters (us) and see how he responds.

 

[UnclePsyko]

I'm not sure what percentage of the global market the U.S. represents, but I'm hoping the overseas manufacturers are taking notice and are willing to take some action such as financially supporting/backing any litigation that arises in the future.
I find it hard to believe that the manufacturers would just sit by and let a large market get wiped out before their eyes.

Of course, I could be totally wrong... it wouldn't be the first time