Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Alexander Mundy]

Like back to when not just anybody was allowed to use just any public drinking fountain anywhere in the USA.?

Today, Americans have a combination of less and more freedoms.

Indeed you are correct. However the actual changes for more freedom were not brought about nor initially supported by government. It was those that were affected banding together until the public and government saw it was either futile or economically not in their best interest to continue oppressing them.

 

[Endor]

So once again, Is there going to be Congressional Review of what the FDA has just Announced?

How is the Congress in involved in reviewing final rules?


Under the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act (also known as the
Congressional Review Act), new final rules must be sent to Congress and the Government
Accountability Office for review before they can take effect. “Major rules” (ones that are
economically significant and require OIRA review) must be made effective at least 60 days after
the date of publication in the Federal Register, allowing time for Congressional review. In
emergency situations, a major rule can be made effective before 60 days.

If the House and Senate pass a resolution of disapproval and the President signs it (or if both
houses override a presidential veto), the rule becomes void and cannot be republished by an
agency in the same form without Congressional approval. Since 1996, when this process
started, Congress has disapproved only one rule.

Congress may also exercise its oversight in other ways, by holding hearings and posing
questions to agency heads, by enacting new legislation, or by imposing funding restrictions."

https://www.federalregister.gov/uploads/2011/01/the_rulemaking_process.pdf

---

Why have we been Waiting for 5 Years for this Day to Come, and Now that it is here, there is Confusion about what Happens Next?

I think the key sentence in your original post is: "Since 1996, when this process started, Congress has disapproved only one rule.".

Disapproved one rule. In 20 years.

I don't think there is nearly enough momentum in Congress on this issue for them to intervene, which is unfortunate.

Especially since the vast majority of vendors (small business) have just been lazy on this issue, all of this time. We knew this was coming. Yet, they were too worried about cloud chasing comps and getting bearded hipsters in their shops to actually get engaged in advocacy. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. They are not beating down Congress' door... why would they get involved?

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

Been gone for a while. Fell off the wagon a couple times, but always found a new juice or build, or a new rattle in my breathing that brought me back to vaping. Been back, in earnest, for about a month now. Each time I've fallen off the wagon, and found my way back, I've been blown away by the advances that were made while I was gone. It'd be a shame to see this industry lose its momentum.

I've actually seen a couple good-news stories in these first days after the deeming. I work in the firearms industry, and we have a fair number of stalwart, old-school, vaping is for queer-folk and hipsters type-smokers, where I work.

They'd gotten over ribbing me about my on/off vaping for the last few years, and let me be. And, then, something changed.

On Friday morning, there were three old-grumpy conservatives holding e-cigs, two pens and one box-mod, out at the smoking shelter. Two of them were the ones who used to give me the most grief about vaping.

I asked what was up, and they had all seen the news, read just a little deeper than the general public is getting from the drive-by media, and realized, right away, what was going on.

It offended them.

Having worked in the firearms industry for decades each, they knew what was happening, and it ...... them off.

One commented that he'd figured he'd need to turn on to vaping eventually, and had been fighting it. He said he'd seen the evolution that vapers had to go through, individually, to get to something that worked, and, now, realized he needed to get it sorted out before the taxes and bans started.

So, naturally, the discussion went to the ways we can work around what's coming. I calmed them down, a little, by showing them how all the equipment I was using could break down into non-ecig elements: a variable wattage flashlight, an aroma diffuser, leather etching wire, and surgical cotton.

The only thing I was extremely worried about was the liquid nicotine, so I had ordered 2l of 100mg, and enough 50ml bottles to freeze it all on Thursday night. All three of them asked me to forward them my receipts so they could order the same stuff.


There is an element of kindred-spirit between the cigar smokers, vapers, moonshine enthusiasts, and "bitter gun-clingers", and times like these turn acquaintances into brothers.

 

[Bronze]

I woke up this morning and surprise, surprise! The sun rose and I was vaping. Two years from now I plan to have the same morning. I intend the FDA slugs who passed these outrageous regulations will have a much different morning two years from now. I intend to make sure they spend their day looking for a job.

 

[zoiDman]

Sorry zoid, must have been part of your bottom page sig .............

I guess I'm missing something?

 

[sparkky1]

I guess I'm missing something?

Why have we been Waiting for 5 Years for this Day to Come, and Now that it is here, there is Confusion about what Happens Next?

 

[zoiDman]

I think the key sentence in your original post is: "Since 1996, when this process started, Congress has disapproved only one rule.".

Disapproved one rule. In 20 years.

I don't think there is nearly enough momentum in Congress on this issue for them to intervene, which is unfortunate.

Especially since the vast majority of vendors (small business) have just been lazy on this issue, all of this time. We knew this was coming. Yet, they were too worried about cloud chasing comps and getting bearded hipsters in their shops to actually get engaged in advocacy. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. They are not beating down Congress' door... why would they get involved?

I guess I'm just Not Ready to Lay Down and Concede that the FDA is Right or Justified in what they are Doing.

If what the FDA has published is going to go to Congress for Review, then I'll take My Fight there. And if No One else wants to Join Me, that's Cool.

 

[Spazmelda]

Technically, being part of the FSTPCA does mean that the FDA cannot outright ban a product, as the law specifically excludes that option.

Of course, there are other ways to get rid a product category without outright banning it, which is what they've done here. My guess is that the FDA will not approve a single PMTA for an vapor product over the next 3 years. So after that, they will all be gone. "Banned", but not outright banned, if you catch my drift.

The way the regs are worded I agree that they will not approve anything (except maybe from BT). It is worded in such a way that the regulations can never really be met (especially if they don't want them to). They will simply keep moving the goal posts for "no public harm". At any rate "no public harm" is absolutely impossible to prove in the scientific sense. There is nothing that can be proven to have no harm.

 

[Kent C]

I've been trying to read through this thread but it's just too long. Has anyone answered the question as to whether there was eliquid being sold and marketed in the US prior to the 2007 cut off? I didn't start until 2009 but remember RuyanDirect but I don't know how long they were in business. Janty was another name I remember.

Ruyan has been in business since 2005. They sold products through themselves, Ruyan Direct (as heaven gifts - which dropped the Ruyan name in Sept 2009 when Ruyan formed their own distributorship) and egicarette-mart. Wayne at heaven gifts has told me that he marketed in the US through ebay as RuyanDirect at first in 2006 but no paperwork to substantiate that. And they sold Ruyan eliquid at that time.

 

[crxess]

I think that has been part of the problem all along. Not many vapers have even paid much attention to any of this until now.

And sadly the majority still are not aware.

Most Vapers are not on Forums or up on current events or in any way realize there is change coming. Most are on a cheap alternative level to replace smoking.

Those are actually the ones we need to fight the hardest to inform and protect.
Peeps heading for the slaughter house without a clue.

 

[zoiDman]

Why have we been Waiting for 5 Years for this Day to Come, and Now that it is here, there is Confusion about what Happens Next?

Gotcha.

 

[supertrunker]

I woke up this morning and surprise, surprise! The sun rose and I was vaping. Two years from now I plan to have the same morning. I intend the FDA slugs who passed these outrageous regulations will have a much different morning two years from now. I intend to make sure they spend their day looking for a job.

i rose this morning, HRH hijacked my car at gunpoint to satisfy a shopping addiction and i sat outside on the patio donating blood to mosquitoes as i vaped.

i am a single issue voter and if they oppose vaping, i will campaign against them.

T

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

And I've got something to add to the justifiably derided political discussion that's been taking place here.

I'm a conservative - no puzzle there- but I can't stand Donald Trump. I had already resigned myself to not voting this cycle.

BUT...to the point that an earlier poster made about needing "outside the box ideas", Trump may have something to offer us here.

Trump is a populist, and thrives on going against the grain, even, I believe, when it doesn't match his actual beliefs. Trump needs voters, and will get behind causes that he thinks will win him voters, and be VERY vocal about it.

We should consider modifying a copy of the CASAA petition we've all been signing, to make it look like it was a plea to Trump to stand up for us, and then send it directly to his campaign.

We know that Hillary is going to take the "it's about the kids" road, but there's a good chance that Trump could be turned on to frothing at the mouth about this government overreach, and making it a campaign issue.

I'm still not sure I could ever vote for him, but getting him to trumpet about it would get the cause some air time, and make some allegiances in the right wing constituency.

 

[bnrkwest]

What was available in 2007, 3 part pen type? I started vaping in 2009 and things were pretty sorry back then, I can't imagine what was available in 2007! Sadly I never got into rebuilding, but if we can still get 2007 atty's maybe we can all still drip???

 

[Endor]

The way the regs are worded I agree that they will not approve anything (except maybe from BT). It is worded in such a way that the regulations can never really be met (especially if they don't want them to). They will simply keep moving the goal posts for "no public harm". At any rate "no public harm" is absolutely impossible to prove in the scientific sense. There is nothing that can be proven to have no harm.

Exactly my thought. Every day, I drive L.A. freeways and breathe car and diesel exhaust. There is harm in that.

Frankly, living itself is harmful. All of us will eventually die, regardless of what we do or do not do to our bodies. Entropy always wins.

 

[phephner]

Really? What did it do for the Million Man March?

Just because you are unaware of the changes and/or they did not affect you personally, doesn't mean nothing happened.
The Million Man March: Its History and Legacy

 

[WillyZee]

the only data they care about ... how many people have quit smoking and how do we get them back?

 

[bnrkwest]

And I've got something to add to the justifiably derided political discussion that's been taking place here.

I'm a conservative - no puzzle there- but I can't stand Donald Trump. I had already resigned myself to not voting this cycle.

BUT...to the point that an earlier poster made about needing "outside the box ideas", Trump may have something to offer us here.

Trump is a populist, and thrives on going against the grain, even, I believe, when it doesn't match his actual beliefs. Trump needs voters, and will get behind causes that he thinks will win him voters, and be VERY vocal about it.

We should consider modifying a copy of the CASAA petition we've all been signing, to make it look like it was a plea to Trump to stand up for us, and then send it directly to his campaign.

We know that Hillary is going to take the "it's about the kids" road, but there's a good chance that Trump could be turned on to frothing at the mouth about this government overreach, and making it a campaign issue.

I'm still not sure I could ever vote for him, but getting him to trumpet about it would get the cause some air time, and make some allegiances in the right wing constituency.

Trump doesn't smoke or drink and I sure don't trust him for being pro anything but himself!

 

[sparkky1]

I woke up this morning and surprise, surprise! The sun rose and I was vaping. Two years from now I plan to have the same morning. I intend the FDA slugs who passed these outrageous regulations will have a much different morning two years from now. I intend to make sure they spend their day looking for a job.

They only hire from within, it's been a revolving door for ages, well since GMO's, your talking about CEO's of multi billion dollar pharmaceutical / health care corporations that still have major muscle in the cartel.
Better odds trying to put Trump out of a job ................

 

[Kent C]

19 year old kids were being sent off to die in a unjust war ..the is completely different

Yep. Now some 19 year olds will only be sent off to cigarettes. My guess more will die than in Vietnam - but it will take a while.