Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Eskie]

I'd like to try and understand how I can have a product on the market when I'm told what I can make and sell (and be taxed for the privilege). Who draws the line on what my property is? And where does that end up predictably? When someone else controls the goal post and boundaries? And why was that exactly, for the children? Tangled webs don't work for me. Just sayin'.

In war we're often reminded you have to acknowledge you're already dead to gain the will to survive it.

Good luck all.

Actually, regulation of what you can make and sell is hardly unique in the marketplace. Goods from foods to clothing to paints are all regulated, and taxed at varying levels depending on your location. A free market does automatically mean a regulation free market. They are two very different animals.

vaping will be regulated. That's the reality. How it is regulated, and assuring vaping as we currently experience it remains available, is up for grabs.

 

[mattiem]

IMO the focus needs to be on the fact that vaping is NOT a Tobacco product. All the rest of this including the Cole/Bishop Amendment is a Red Herring. If they do rule that Vaping is Tobacco because of Nicotine they'll have to include Potato's, Tomato's, Eggplant, Broccoli, etc. etc. etc. Which would expose further how out of touch with reality they are.

This one line cannot be stressed enough. That is what so many of us have been saying all along. So many have already given up on this one and are fighting to get the date changed when in fact the fight should be against being deemed tobacco to begin with.

I know those of us that have been trying to fight against being deemed a tobacco product are beating our heads against a brick wall though because so few folks that could do something to help us choose not to help. We contacted various vaping advocates but sadly they all chose to fight for the date change instead of trying to change the classification.

 

[r055co]

This one line cannot be stressed enough. That is what so many of us have been saying all along. So many have already given up on this one and are fighting to get the date changed when in fact the fight should be against being deemed tobacco to begin with.

I know those of us that have been trying to fight against being deemed a tobacco product are beating our heads against a brick wall though because so few folks that could do something to help us choose not to help. We contacted various vaping advocates but sadly they all chose to fight for the date change instead of trying to change the classification.

When there are those who's position is weak they redirect from the threshold issue.

 

[Bronze]

This one line cannot be stressed enough. That is what so many of us have been saying all along. So many have already given up on this one and are fighting to get the date changed when in fact the fight should be against being deemed tobacco to begin with.

I know those of us that have been trying to fight against being deemed a tobacco product are beating our heads against a brick wall though because so few folks that could do something to help us choose not to help. We contacted various vaping advocates but sadly they all chose to fight for the date change instead of trying to change the classification.

I completely understand what you are saying and generally I would completely support this. However, even if we were able to get vape products "undeemed" as a tobacco product it will only be a matter of time before they deem it something equally sinful and regulate it just as they are attempting to do so now. Sadly, we are at the mercy of our politicians. The Trump admin and/or the GOP house and senate might shoot an arrow into these deeming regs but what happens when the executive and legislative branches eventually turn over to the Democrats or a new flock of Republicans? Bottom line, we will be allowed to legally (or affordably) vape only to the level that our sanctimonious government masters allow us.

One other point. I'm not against regulations if they make sense. Sadly, most regulations today do not make sense. They're designed to advance politician's power and reach. But practical regs are a good thing. For example, I would like to see safety standards put in place for e-cigarettes. Too many irresponsible buyers and sellers that make the industry look bad (dangerous). But like everything else, the pols cannot stop there. They have to regulate every last molecule.

 

[zoiDman]

IMO the focus needs to be on the fact that Vaping is NOT a Tobacco product. All the rest of this including the Cole/Bishop Amendment is a Red Herring. If they do rule that Vaping is Tobacco because of Nicotine they'll have to include Potato's, Tomato's, Eggplant, Broccoli, etc. etc. etc. Which would expose further how out of touch with reality they are.

But hasn't a Court already ruled that the FDA Does have the Authority to Regulate any product that is "made from or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption"?

https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2009cv0771-54

Sottera Inc. v. U.S. Food and Drug Administration | Public Health Law Center

 

[mattiem]

I completely understand what you are saying and generally I would completely support this. However, even if we were able to get vape products "undeemed" as a tobacco product it will only be a matter of time before they deem it something equally sinful and regulate it just as they are attempting to do so now. Sadly, we are at the mercy of our politicians. The Trump admin and/or the GOP house and senate might shoot an arrow into these deeming regs but what happens when the executive and legislative branches eventually turn over to the Democrats or a new flock of Republicans? Bottom line, we will be allowed to legally (or affordably) vape only to the level that our sanctimonious government masters allow us.

One other point. I'm not against regulations if they make sense. Sadly, most regulations today do not make sense. They're designed to advance politician's power and reach. But practical regs are a good thing. For example, I would like to see safety standards put in place for e-cigarettes. Too many irresponsible buyers and sellers that make the industry look bad (dangerous). But like everything else, the pols cannot stop there. They have to regulate every last molecule.

I pretty well know that it is to late and there doesn't seem to be a way to prevent this life saving technology from being over regulated as a tobacco product. I also realize it is to late to even hope that vape products will gain their own classification. At this point our only recourse is getting the date changed but I still hold out hope that some sanity will come into play when it comes to the deeming regs.

 

[Bronze]

I pretty well know that it is to late and there doesn't seem to be a way to prevent this life saving technology from being over regulated as a tobacco product. I also realize it is to late to even hope that vape products will gain their own classification. At this point our only recourse is getting the date changed but I still hold out hope that some sanity will come into play when it comes to the deeming regs.

I'm with you. And would love to see vape products undeemed as a tobacco product. I think it will be a battle we have to fight forever. I think the biggest problem we have now is our numbers. If we were 40 million strong we would have some more weight to throw around.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Eggs-actly! Is Coca-Cola an alcohol product just because you can add rum to it? Is orange juice an alcohol product just because you can add vodka? Is a shot glass an alcohol product because it's possible to fill it with tequila?

I am from the government and I answer all three of your questions with one word: "Yes".

 

[Rossum]

I am from the government and I answer all three of your questions with one word: "Yes".

And people still wonder why I consider myself a philsophical anarchist.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Actually, regulation of what you can make and sell is hardly unique in the marketplace. Goods from foods to clothing to paints are all regulated, and taxed at varying levels depending on your location. A free market does automatically mean a regulation free market. They are two very different animals.

Vaping will be regulated. That's the reality. How it is regulated, and assuring vaping as we currently experience it remains available, is up for grabs.

Why? What public good is served? That's not a billion ways to sunday bull?

See, I don't mind getting skewered if they'd only smile when they do it.

Good luck.

 

[Eskie]

Why? What public good is served? That's not a billion ways to sunday bull?

See, I don't mind getting skewered if they'd only smile when they do it.

Good luck.

What are you referring to, the regulation of vaping, or regulation in general in relation to serving the public good?

 

[r055co]

But hasn't a Court already ruled that the FDA Does have the Authority to Regulate any product that is "made from or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption"?

https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2009cv0771-54

Sottera Inc. v. U.S. Food and Drug Administration | Public Health Law Center

With that logic Coca Cola is a Schedule 1 Drug since they still use the leaves in the formula.

Plus the Courts haven't ruled on it, if it does and it backs this idiotic position it needs to go all the way to the Supreme Court. Think of the ramifications if this is held up

 

[MacTechVpr]

What are you referring to, the regulation of vaping, or regulation in general in relation to serving the public good?

Just once I'd like to see our elected rep's not insult our intelligence by trying to con everyone with regard to the agenda. That the trajectory is expansion and taxation.

My point is there's no basis. Isn't that why we're all in opposition? The implied injustice of unsubstantiated inferred future harm. The product all too often of rule by committee and office holders no matter how well intended. Why we have a Congress. Why it failed in its broad unqualified delegation so expanding FDA's unconstrained regulatory power. Give us excess…you would think is the public interest.

Because mech's are dangerous! Please.

In what alternative universe?

So my friends I would simply ask, why not address the source?

Why fashion the same half-measures that only served as inadequate compromise in the face of an adversarial or indifferent Congress and leadership? Why voluntarily subscribe now to an unlawful process already in place which only promises further constraint and limitations on property. That somehow misconstruction by regulators will then cease? Or, will it rather be assured?

So what are we saying then, it's inevitable. That we, the actual stakeholders, can't control our own government?

Resorting to legislation that merely further legitimizes an unfounded and destructive regulatory framework however would serve to seemingly validate one thing— the perspective that regulation is unavoidable and the way things are done.

If there is a compelling public need for this kind of regulation of an industry, I've yet to see it articulated.

Good luck.

 

[zoiDman]

With that logic Coca Cola is a Schedule 1 Drug since they still use the leaves in the formula.

Plus the Courts haven't ruled on it, if it does and it backs this idiotic position it needs to go all the way to the Supreme Court. Think of the ramifications if this is held up

Not really trying to revive All this. Because it has been discussed Again and Again and Again for the Last 5+ Years.

Just say'n that I don't see the FDA's Authority to Regulate e-Liquids that contain Nicotine which was Derived from Tobacco changing any time soon.

Now how the FDA Regulates it? Or products that do Not Contain Nicotine or Hardware? Hard to say.

 

[r055co]

Not really trying to revive All this. Because it has been discussed Again and Again and Again for the Last 5+ Years.

Just say'n that I don't see the FDA's Authority to Regulate e-Liquids that contain Nicotine which was Derived from Tobacco changing any time soon.

Now how the FDA Regulates it? Or products that do Not Contain Nicotine or Hardware? Hard to say.

Thus why it needs to go up the the Supreme Court if it has to.

 

[zoiDman]

Thus why it needs to go up the the Supreme Court if it has to.

OK.

Then let's Hope if someone brings it before the Supreme Court, that court is willing to hear the Case.

 

[r055co]

OK.

Then let's Hope if someone brings it before the Supreme Court, that court is willing to hear the Case.

And that is one of the many problems

Bottom line is this, I have been very sceptical and remain very sceptical that anything positive will happen. My belief is we're all going to get screwed, thus the need to establish a healthy and respectable stockpile.

 

[mattiem]

And that is one of the many problems

Bottom line is this, I have been very sceptical and remain very sceptical that anything positive will happen. My belief is we're all going to get screwed, thus the need to establish a healthy and respectable stockpile.

Yep, hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I am prepared.

 

[oplholik]

I'm prepared also, and I just keep getting more prepared. I figure I've got another month as I intend to quit preparing the first of April when Calif.'s new taxes take effect.

 

[MacTechVpr]

IMO the focus needs to be on the fact that Vaping is NOT a Tobacco product. All the rest of this including the Cole/Bishop Amendment is a Red Herring. If they do rule that Vaping is Tobacco because of Nicotine they'll have to include Potato's, Tomato's, Eggplant, Broccoli, etc. etc. etc. Which would expose further how out of touch with reality they are.

Yes, a nice end run to control an organic molecule as a taxable drug while selectively ignoring others. Hopefully the CDC or EPA won't patent H20 to achieve the self-funding of alternative gov.

Where there's a will, there's our way…so they say.

Good luck.