Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[retired1]

This wasn't RTS Vapes' first dance with the feds. As far back as 2013, he was being investigated by DHS.

 

[Eskie]

This wasn't RTS Vapes' first dance with the feds. As far back as 2013, he was being investigated by DHS.

What were they under scrutiny for in 2013? It couldn't have had anything to do with the deeming regs.

 

[Rossum]

Do remember a warning letter is not a finding of guilt and you're going to jail. They didn't even levy a fine, which can be done after the second or third offense. It doesn't drive someone out of business if they know what this is. BP gets hundreds of warning letters every year, and address them or refute the interpretation. The FDA did not walk in and .... them down. They chose to shut down, and if it was solely because of that letter, it was a way over the top response.

The difference is that BP players have nearly unlimited funds for lawyers and potential fines are just a cost of doing business. RTS was a small business operating on relatively slim margins without resources like that. I do agree that they folded too easily, but I sorta understand...

 

[Opinionated]

Do remember a warning letter is not a finding of guilt and you're going to jail. They didn't even levy a fine, which can be done after the second or third offense. It doesn't drive someone out of business if they know what this is. BP gets hundreds of warning letters every year, and address them or refute the interpretation. The FDA did not walk in and .... them down. They chose to shut down, and if it was solely because of that letter, it was a way over the top response.

Yes.. I agree with you... he either wasn't willing at all to change his business practices where concerned ID-ing his online customers (as he did not seem to verify age at all) OR, there was another reason he went out of business.

But, his going out of business sale began within days of that letter, and (I was apparently wrong in my assumption at the time) he actually went out of business.

The whole thing seemed weird. I don't think he ever discounted stock anyone would be that interested in to buy him out in such a short time.... the nic, the hardware, none of that was ever discounted to my knowledge, just a few things that were more side items was all that was ever put on sale with any real monetary consequence. I still find it strange, as we've all seen actual going out of business sales with vape shops, and this looked nothing like it.

But, he did go out of business, and the only thing we ever saw to connect it was the letter. Not even the employees seemed to know anything.

 

[Eskie]

The difference is that BP players have nearly unlimited funds for lawyers and potential fines are just a cost of doing business. RTS was a small business operating on relatively slim margins without resources like that. I do agree that they folded too easily, but I sorta understand...

Clearly BP has whole departments set up just to deal with those letters and a small company will be hard pressed to address them without hiring the proper counsel. However underage enforcement by the FDA was spelled out as 1 or 2 warnings of we know you did it now stop, followed by an escalating series of fines which probably get (don't know the exacts) quite painful if you keep selling your juice in a schoolyard. Not really a capital offense that a business cannot weather.

 

[Robino1]

What were they under scrutiny for in 2013? It couldn't have had anything to do with the deeming regs.

If you want to read about it I found this: RTS Vapes: Lowest Prices on Quality Flavorless Nicotine Liquid Made in the USA

 

[Eskie]

If you want to read about it I found this: RTS Vapes: Lowest Prices on Quality Flavorless Nicotine Liquid Made in the USA

OK, that was one of the weirdest stories I've read. Homeland Security involved in a vape shop enforcement action??? Not saying it didn't happen, but that is way out of left field.

 

[Opinionated]

OK, that was one of the weirdest stories I've read. Homeland Security involved in a vape shop enforcement action??? Not saying it didn't happen, but that is way out of left field.

Very much agree that is weird as all get out.

 

[Opinionated]

OK, that was one of the weirdest stories I've read. Homeland Security involved in a vape shop enforcement action??? Not saying it didn't happen, but that is way out of left field.

You know, it was again, his flavorless nicotine concentrate they dinged him for, for selling to minors.

Would the government be trying to shut down one companies nicotine sales, and if so why?

 

[Ceejay0875]

OK, that was one of the weirdest stories I've read. Homeland Security involved in a vape shop enforcement action??? Not saying it didn't happen, but that is way out of left field.

Yeah, but several posts later he claims that the week before he was approached by BT wanting to buy him out. Tends to make the whole thing more believable to me.

 

[stols001]

Wow, I had no idea Gottlib had cancer himself and also owned a vape shop for a while. That's kinda... Ideal for our situation at present.

I wonder if he uses a vape?

Anna

 

[Eskie]

Yeah, but several posts later he claims that the week before he was approached by BT wanting to buy him out. Tends to make the whole thing more believable to me.

Well, if you think those agents were there to act like enforcers for BT, they should have been reported for using their official position on an off duty matter. That's not just a firing offence, it's a criminal felony offense. We're all second and third guessing what actually happened, but I'd find that scenario even less believable to connect the two.

 

[stols001]

But with disability, Medicaid and VA patients, they know exactly what they are spending due to smoking related illnesses.

Not always. During my entire year and a half bout with pneumonias, not a single one of my docs classified it other than "asthma, flares." My docs have asked me if I smoke, and how much, but I've gotten my health records before and it's really not prominent, my PCP doesn't even have a space for more than one pack. Of course, I am going to inform my docs of my vapemiracle, and they will be removing smoking and not replacing it with vaping, I have never received that question, "Do you vape?" from my doctors office.

Of course, they are a vape friendly, harm reduction kind of place. I do have to say both my PCPs have been nothing other than kind, encouraging, and hopeful, not judgemental, and it really helps.

There may be some measure of harm reduction data that could be collected, and I'd like that a great deal IF the data were handled correctly. I do also have that, "WTH, government, how dare you collect sin tax information on me," also. But, I do understand the need, I just (again) hope that smokers aren't penalized, and that overall we pull together to increase vaping (I have a feeling after that ruling and some of the media articles, my docs may feel comfortable recommending vaping, forinstance) and that would be ideal. My ragtag (but excellent) PCP group are just.... like that. If they could they'd probably allow vaping in the waiting areas.

I have to see my PCP soon, I'm going to ask some of these questions and see what he says. Doctors offices are great places to promote vaping, as smokers are usually miserable when seeking out care. I'd love it if they felt they could recommend vaping. RECOMMEND, not force.

Anna

 

[oplholik]

I have Medicare with a supplemental, and my records just show that I'm a former smoker, no mention of continued nicotine use in any way. My PCP is just thrilled that I quit smoking.

 

[mattiem]

Die hard smokers get thrown under the bus yet again, reduced nicotine cigs are just going to make them smoke more, trying to satisfy that craving, thereby increasing the harm they get exposed to through smoking.

yep and for what reason ... I don't think it is the nicotine alone that keeps smokers smoking so lowering it will accomplish nothing good. It will just cause smokers to smoke more because their smokes aren't as satisfying as before so they just smoke more.

If such a huge turn in direction can occur because of a few key positions, the opposite could also occur at some future point.

If at some point the leadership decided that they want to eliminate nicotine usage altogether, they will have the authority to regulate it so...by reducing nicotine concentrations allowed in electronic delivery methods. I don't trust the FDA, I've been screwed over by them via the orphan drug laws, in particular, colchicine, which went from an extremely inexpensive medication, to an approved product that overnight became unaffordable.

So very true

Vapor products should be removed from the tobacco classification, and regulated as an entirely new and novel adult consumer good product category.

This is what I have been saying all along but have been told it is too late for that to happen. There are also those that threw up their hands and gave up once the deeming regs were posted. It is NEVER too late to keep fighting for what is right. We need to get as much distance from burning tobacco as is humanly possible.

 

[stols001]

Well, Mattiem, I agree with you overall. I feel a great deal of sympathy for the smokers this may impact, but yes, my primary focus remains on vaping, and we need to continue to let our voices be heard by our legislators, and I'd say, YES, the FDA at this point, except it's still not clear what ultimately they may be aiming for, in which case, our legislators and honestly I kinda want to thank Gottlieb while not giving him any information, if you know what I mean, kinda. There's no point thanking large governmental agencies, they will do what is in their function and administration, despite many other things....

So yes, vaping FIRST. Thanks mattiem

Anna

 

[Bonskibon]

I am going to inform my docs of my vapemiracle, and they will be removing smoking and not replacing it with vaping, I have never received that question, "Do you vape?" from my doctors office.

My records show "nicotine dependence" whether I'm smoking or vaping didn't seem to make a difference.

 

[leftyandsparky]

My records show "nicotine dependence" whether I'm smoking or vaping didn't seem to make a difference.

I have replied before that I'm on nicotine replacement therapy.

 

[Robino1]

My records show "nicotine dependence" whether I'm smoking or vaping didn't seem to make a difference.

At least they got it right in calling it a dependence and NOT an addiction. Do they also list if you have a caffiene dependence?

 

[somdcomputerguy]

Do they also list if you have a caffeine dependence?

I remember seeing a post or a meme somewhere, probably Facebook, which I have to use more than I want - "I went into a diner and ordered some coffee. The server asked, 'How do you take your coffee?' 'Seriously, very seriously' I answered".