Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[zoiDman]

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that the folks we are dealing with don't want give and take or compromise. We give, they take, and we get nothing in return. They have no interest in compromise and there isn't really anything they can offer us in return for our compromises. In reality every "compromise" is just a whittling away of my rights. Its the same kind of thing with the gun control lobby. Give us x we'll leave y alone. A few months pass and they are back again. Just give us y and you can keep z. If you say no to the continued demands then you're "unreasonable" you don't have any interest in compromise, etc etc. When in reality you're just tired of giving and giving and getting nothing in return.

Imagine you have a cake. It's your cake. Someone comes along and says give me the cake. You say no that's my cake. Well how about you just give me a 1/2 of the cake? That's reasonable. You don't need a whole cake. So you agree.

They come back the next day. They want half your cake now. No, i just gave you half my cake yesterday you say. Come on, thats only a small bit and you still have plenty of cake. Give it to me and I won't ask for any more cake. I promise. The rest is all yours. You give them half of your remaining cake.

A couple days go by and they are back again. That last half wasn't enough
We want more of your cake. But I've already given you three quarters of my cake. I barely have any cake left at all you say. Why do you have to be so unreasonable they reply. We aren't trying to take all of your cake. Just give us half of what you have left. You'll still have some cake and we will too.

As they leave you look down and see what was once a whole cake that was fully yours is now just a single slice while they have almost all of your cake.

They've gotten everything and you're left with almost nothing.

That's the end game here. Its not a give and take and its not a compromise. Its a give and give and give until you've got nothing left.

I'd be Happy to compromise. Just let me know what I'm getting in return for my concessions.

Its not a victory if get to keep something we had all along by giving up something else.

I don't think Most would disagree with the perils of your Cake Analogy. But is that what is Happening to the e-Cigarette Market? Especially in light of the recent Statements by the FDA Commissionaire?

I want to see the Predicate Date Changed. And Congress is the Only One who can make that Change. But that will take 60 Votes.

Simple Math. Can we get 60 Votes in the Senate to change the Predicate Date while at the same time Fighting for Unrestrictive Marketing of e-Cigarettes/e-liquids?

I understand all the Free Commercial Speech arguments. And I understand the Overwhelming Majority of OEM's are Not Intentionally Marketing to "Children". But Many who Hold a Vote in the Senate do not see things as I see them.

So maybe much of this gets down to What do Vapers want? And what are they Willing to do to get 60 Votes to have it?

 

[stols001]

I wrote my congressmen and the FDA, we all should do that. It's really not that difficult, most of you have an incredible post or few in here that you could just copy, edit, and send.

I really hate not doing what's rationally possible and useful, even with that part of me that says, "It doesn't matter." Because it does.

Anna

 

[Eskie]

I don't think Most would disagree with the perils of your Cake Analogy. But is that what is Happening to the e-Cigarette Market? Especially in light of the recent Statements by the FDA Commissionaire?

I want to see the Predicate Date Changed. And Congress is the Only One who can make that Change. But that will take 60 Votes.

Simple Math. Can we get 60 Votes in the Senate to change the Predicate Date while at the same time Fighting for Unrestrictive Marketing of e-Cigarettes/e-liquids?

I understand all the Free Commercial Speech arguments. And I understand the Overwhelming Majority of OEM's are Not Intentionally Marketing to "Children". But Many who Hold a Vote in the Senate do not see things as I see them.

So maybe much of this gets down to Want do Vapers want? And what are they Willing to do to get 60 Votes to have it?

What rules are there that require a super-majority of the Senate to change the predicate date? Maybe it's my lack of knowledge, but I thought laws can be changed by a simple majority vote.

 

[stols001]

If they can get a Supreme Court Justice on a 51 majority, we should be able to get a deeming change with the same thing. I am also wondering... Is it 60% because it's overturning a former Congress decision? That would be my first thought.... My first thought is often wrong....

I'm sorry, I missed Civics class in the USA and learned most of it while Naturalizing, my little bro was giggling at me and my textbooks and flashcards, but HE got to sit through Civics here...

Anna

 

[zoiDman]

What rules are there that require a super-majority of the Senate to change the predicate date? Maybe it's my lack of knowledge, but I thought laws can be changed by a simple majority vote.

I believe a Super Majority is 67 Votes (2/3) in the Senate.

 

[DPLongo22]

It's a complex issue, invoking the so-called Nuclear Option. As a rule though, 60 is the magic number.

You can read up on the processes if you want, but the likelihood that it would ever happen for vaping (when it wasn't even a consideration for healthcare) is extremely low (nonexistent).

Shoot for the 60. Make phone calls. A lot of phone calls.

Over and over and over again.

 

[Kent C]

You know, all of that sounds good, but that is assuming you have the "power". The government has the power to enact laws, all we can do is protest them. We can elect different regimes, but the regimes still have the power, our power is diminished once the election is over.

This wasn't about not following the law, it was about compromising principles, and not appeasing.

One can as you suggest, protest, write congress, promote and support primary candidates who agree with you on issues when the incumbent does not, but you don't have to agree, appease, be "reasonable" or compromise your principles in the process.

Adults like flavors and cartoons as much as children: (from an earlier post)


Wonder how many kids are buying insurance from this guy?

Or this one?

... or are buying tires??

 

[Kent C]

I believe a Super Majority is 67 Votes (2/3) in the Senate.

wiki:
The Constitution of the United States requires supermajorities in order for certain significant actions to occur.

Amendments to the Constitution may be proposed in one of two ways: a two-thirds supermajority votes of each house of Congress or a convention called by Congress on application of two thirds (currently 34) of the states. Once proposed, the amendment must be ratified by three quarters (currently 38) of the states.

Congress may pass bills by simple majority votes. If the president vetoes a bill, Congress may override the veto by a two-thirds supermajority of both houses.

A treaty may be ratified by a two-thirds supermajority of the Senate.
...

Apart from these constitutional requirements, a Senate rule (except in cases covered by the nuclear option, or of a rule change) requires an absolute supermajority of three fifths to move to a vote through a cloture motion, which closes debate on a bill or nomination, thus ending a filibuster by a minority of members. In current practice, the mere threat of a filibuster prevents passing almost any measure that has less than three-fifths agreement in the Senate, 60 of the 100 senators if every seat is filled.

 

[beckdg]

They are already on us about flavors, gee, I wonder if this will piss the Feds off. A little discretion within the industry might go a long way.......


View attachment 676081

I want one.

Guns don't kill people, virgins do! -Jim Jeffries

 

[zoiDman]

... In current practice, the mere threat of a filibuster prevents passing almost any measure that has less than three-fifths agreement in the Senate, 60 of the 100 senators if every seat is filled.

I can Remember a Time when a Filibuster was Rarely used.

 

[Eskie]

I believe a Super Majority is 67 Votes (2/3) in the Senate.

My bad. As @Kent C just pointed out the 60 vote issue is for cutting off any filibuster. Enacting (other than the specific situations Kent listed) can be done by simple majority. I'm not sure if the inclusion of a predicate date amendment to a bill would be enough to threaten a filibuster over it.

 

[mikepetro]

This wasn't about not following the law, it was about compromising principles, and not appeasing.

One can as you suggest, protest, write congress, promote and support primary candidates who agree with you on issues when the incumbent does not, but you don't have to agree, appease, be "reasonable" or compromise your principles in the process.

Adults like flavors and cartoons as much as children: (from an earlier post)


Wonder how many kids are buying insurance from this guy?

Or this one?

... or are buying tires??

However, none of those insurance guys are flying in the face of a hot button issue.

Point taken though, and I agree, we like cute stuff too. Hell, I liked the Minion myself, it would make a great conversation piece. I just dont think it is "smart" at this moment in time. Timing is everything, and this isnt the time to draw attention to aspects that could be interpreted as targeting children.

I would rather fight the war on the Predicate Date, and open systems, than get embroiled in the whole children thing. The children thing wont be won, that is just facing reality. Vape, smokes, booze, green leafy substances, most medicines, are all always going be restricted to adults. Trying to fight that battle is not worth losing the war over. Take that battle away and they have a lot less to oppose, because then it moves from emotion to science, and I think the science can indeed win the war.

If you want a Minion atty, do what we vapers have been doing for years, buy something off the shelf and mod it.

 

[Eskie]

This wasn't about not following the law, it was about compromising principles, and not appeasing.

One can as you suggest, protest, write congress, promote and support primary candidates who agree with you on issues when the incumbent does not, but you don't have to agree, appease, be "reasonable" or compromise your principles in the process.

Adults like flavors and cartoons as much as children: (from an earlier post)


Wonder how many kids are buying insurance from this guy?

Or this one?

... or are buying tires??

I think I recall a trip to get new tires when my daughter was around 8, and she kept saying "Daddy, let's get the Michelins". Now I know why.

 

[zoiDman]

My bad. As @Kent C just pointed out the 60 vote issue is for cutting off any filibuster. Enacting (other than the specific situations Kent listed) can be done by simple majority. I'm not sure if the inclusion of a predicate date amendment to a bill would be enough to threaten a filibuster over it.

No worries Eskie. Part of that was my use of 60 Votes. Where I Didn't qualify that that would be what is Needed to include a Filibuster.

The Long and the Short of it is What do we Want? And what is Worth Fighting For?

Because I don't see a big Possibility of moving the Predicate Date up to something like August 2016 if to much else is Changed. Not if 60 Votes are Needed.

And we might want to think about doing this Soon. Cause aint there some Election coming up in the Senate?

 

[DPLongo22]

Cause aint there some Election coming up in the Senate?

 

[zoiDman]

...

I would rather fight the war on the Predicate Date, and open systems, than get embroiled in the whole children thing. The children thing wont be won, that is just facing reality. Vape, smokes, booze, green leafy substances, most medicines, are all always going be restricted to adults. Trying to fight that battle is not worth losing the war over. Take that battle away and they have a lot less to oppose, because then it moves from emotion to science, and I think the science can indeed win the war.

...

That about Sums it Up for a Many of People.

Having a Captain Crunch Cartoon on my e-Liquid Bottle doesn't make the e-Liquid taste any better. Just like having just the words "Cereal Crunch" on the Label doesn't make it Taste any worse.

 

[Kent C]

However, none of those insurance guys are flying in the face of a hot button issue.

Point taken though, and I agree, we like cute stuff too. Hell, I liked the Minion myself, it would make a great conversation piece. I just dont think it is "smart" at this moment in time. Timing is everything, and this isnt the time to draw attention to aspects that could be interpreted as targeting children.

I would rather fight the war on the Predicate Date, and open systems, than get embroiled in the whole children thing. The children thing wont be won, that is just facing reality. Vape, smokes, booze, green leafy substances, most medicines, are all always going be restricted to adults. Trying to fight that battle is not worth losing the war over. Take that battle away and they have a lot less to oppose, because then it moves from emotion to science, and I think the science can indeed win the war.

If you want a Minion atty, do what we vapers have been doing for years, buy something off the shelf and mod it.

While I understand that your post on the Minion clearo was the start, the main 'children' problem is with flavors to where no flavors may be the gov't solution. That's going to leave the 'DIY challenged' (or people that don't know DIY is even an option), with a problem - basically staying with or returning to cigarettes. Frankly, people here who have stocked up and/or DIY are not going to have any problems in the future wrt vaping depending how 'deep' they went. So 'we've' already 'won' that war. Compromise and appeasement will only lose the next war and those after that. Again, once you've 'allowed' even a teaspoon of the cake, the opposition knows what it can do.

And it's one thing to poke an actual bear and quite another to challenge a human capable of(but not always using) rational thought.

 

[Eskie]

No worries Eskie. Part of that was my use of 60 Votes. Where I Didn't qualify that that would be what is Needed to include a Filibuster.

The Long and the Short of it is What do we Want? And what is Worth Fighting For?

Because I don't see a big Possibility of moving the Predicate Date up to something like August 2016 if to much else is Changed. Not if 60 Votes are Needed.

And we might want to think about doing this Soon. Cause aint there some Election coming up in the Senate?

There is also the possibility that the PMTA process will be simplified and relatively easy (big on the relatively) which would make the predicate date less important. Assuming the rules don't change again in the middle of the game. The fact that Gottlieb spoke about the need for innovation in the industry suggests that freezing hardware may not be a top priority. Besides, given how quickly new stuff is coming out, most of what's "new" today won't be by then and why spin your wheels on a product that may very well be discontinued in 6 months when the "new and improved" whatever is released next.

My takeaway with the new position is smoking is bad, harm reduction is something to be taken seriously, and let's keep the save the children crowd happy with public hearings over labeling and whatnot that might make it attractive to underage users. BTW, does anyone really think a 16 year old is going to buy vape gear and juice with Barney on the label expecting to look cool and become popular?

 

[classwife]

However, none of those insurance guys are flying in the face of a hot button issue.

Point taken though, and I agree, we like cute stuff too. Hell, I liked the Minion myself, it would make a great conversation piece. I just dont think it is "smart" at this moment in time. Timing is everything, and this isnt the time to draw attention to aspects that could be interpreted as targeting children.

I would rather fight the war on the Predicate Date, and open systems, than get embroiled in the whole children thing. The children thing wont be won, that is just facing reality. Vape, smokes, booze, green leafy substances, most medicines, are all always going be restricted to adults. Trying to fight that battle is not worth losing the war over. Take that battle away and they have a lot less to oppose, because then it moves from emotion to science, and I think the science can indeed win the war.

If you want a Minion atty, do what we vapers have been doing for years, buy something off the shelf and mod it.

I know you are right...very, very right.
It just disgusts me that we have to fight so hard for such a no-brainer option over smoking.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

This wasn't about not following the law, it was about compromising principles, and not appeasing.

One can as you suggest, protest, write congress, promote and support primary candidates who agree with you on issues when the incumbent does not, but you don't have to agree, appease, be "reasonable" or compromise your principles in the process.

"They" (applies to a diverse group that expects PC) have been slowly eroding away the meaning of tolerance. To me tolerance means I am not going to cause physical harm if someone has a difference of opinion from me, but I retain the right to speak up against it. Now "they" expect me to change my position and agree with "them".