Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
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Robin, I agree. Let's not turn this into a GOP Vs Dem argument. It can get out of control in a quick hurry. However, I think it is OK if it sticks to the issue at hand and only the issue at hand (i.e., these vaping regulations). It's such an important factor in these regulations that it would be too hard not to bring it up. But again. it should be kept to the issue at hand and not meander off into other issues. My two cents.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before. For those of us who are slogging through the 499 pages of the Final Rule, you will notice some placeholders at the end of the document because the Final Rule has not yet been published in the Federal Registry. Nothing will change from what we are reading today BUT the date of publication in the Federal Registry is when the clock starts ticking.
You can see exactly what and when on the following page which shows the Final Rule, the proposed ruleS, and the date of publication in the Federal Registry by the FDA.
In the section titled Documents Pending Publication
I will continue to Fight with every fiber of my body. I didn't spend the last two years fighting and Blogging, only to give up when the Final Rule is released. Period!
You can see exactly what and when on the following page which shows the Final Rule, the proposed ruleS, and the date of publication in the Federal Registry by the FDA.
In the section titled Documents Pending Publication
I will continue to Fight with every fiber of my body. I didn't spend the last two years fighting and Blogging, only to give up when the Final Rule is released. Period!
When you have an Xray done, all you have to do is ask for a copy. Mine was free. Same with a CAT scan I had for appendicitis a few years ago. They are all digital and the DVD has a viewer on it. So, you just pop it in and run the EXE file and it appears on your screen with tools to zoom and scroll.
I think a big R vs D debate is Germane to much of this.
But why not Start a Separate Thread so when the Emotions Run High and the Snark starts, it doesn't effect this Thread?
It would also make the Moderators Job easier.
My understanding from what I have read is that they will require very strict age verification for online sales. That is the only thing that I have seen so far. That is if there are any vendors left to sell online though.
In explaining what just happened yesterday to another person (a non-vaper), I realized I am more upset than I am possibly conveying when I take the time to type out my thoughts. I also noticed that my talk on eCigs is no longer holding back with the 'maybe this' and 'maybe that' type language. IMO, that language can be set aside as wishy washy version of propaganda.
This does mean war. How that war looks remains to be seen. For now, knowing that today I could go to any vendor I went to a week, month or year ago and order the same things I did then, tells me the war is about where it was 5 years ago.
Now, we have indication that the war is being suggested by one side to deplete supply as much as humanly possible. And if I were opposed to eCigs, I would call that a great thing. How could you not?
I'll tell you how anyone sane and reasonable cannot call this a good thing. Demand would have to go way way down for it to be a great thing, plus not be substituted for something else. I would argue for literally anything else that is a physical substance, but that is where the philosophical aspect of the debate becomes the argument to be had. As long as the demand is there for either eCigs or a physical alternative, then all those people who wish to believe depletion of supply side is a great thing are either being short-sighted or idiotic.
Not only will this impact all adults going forward, there is no conceivable way that it will not impact the next generation after us, if demand remains even 15% of what it is now or higher. Add in the notion that propaganda / lies are being conveyed as 'scientific fact' and it compounds the issue exponentially. It's not like humanity has never been down this road before. We have and there are many other examples existing now but on topics that an eCig forum perhaps cares very little about.
Now, those who have demand/desire to use eCigs are essentially being told to take it underground, do it in secret. As that won't really impact demand, and will just give rise to a supply side that is underground, then the war that is coming is really going to be waged between the next generation of suppliers and anyone that stands opposed to them. As long as demand is there, the suppliers will be as well. Kill off (figurative speaking) 50% of the suppliers today and that vacuum will be filled faster than what I think most wish to acknowledge. It likely won't be known how fast it is filled, or by whom, because somehow we are all supposed to like the idea that it is being done underground, and that is deemed 'sanity.'
As noted countless times before, the genie is out of the bottle. Yes, this is horrible news for the legal market going forward, but if demand remains anywhere near what it is now (and I'd go as low as 15% of what it is now), then those that stand opposed are engaging in a battle they will inevitably lose. In the process, could be another 100 years for that process to play out, kids will be used as pawns in the war. They will be people who were naive at first about what's at stake and yet a 5 year old today could be a general 20 years from now on either side of this war.
Before, or even today, we stand a chance to reasonably impact how kids figure into the eCig market. With the direction the FDA has put forth, kids will be engaged in the underground market/battle and only a fool will try to convince others that kids are being shielded from the war. Like all things, kids will learn just how much adults are willing to lie, to their faces, about some aspect of authority and think that won't come back and bite them.
This means war, and unless this is your first day on earth, the reality is those who oppose eCigs have so overplayed their hand, they have now guaranteed their demise.
I rejoice in knowing that.
This does mean war. How that war looks remains to be seen. For now, knowing that today I could go to any vendor I went to a week, month or year ago and order the same things I did then, tells me the war is about where it was 5 years ago.
Now, we have indication that the war is being suggested by one side to deplete supply as much as humanly possible. And if I were opposed to eCigs, I would call that a great thing. How could you not?
I'll tell you how anyone sane and reasonable cannot call this a good thing. Demand would have to go way way down for it to be a great thing, plus not be substituted for something else. I would argue for literally anything else that is a physical substance, but that is where the philosophical aspect of the debate becomes the argument to be had. As long as the demand is there for either eCigs or a physical alternative, then all those people who wish to believe depletion of supply side is a great thing are either being short-sighted or idiotic.
Not only will this impact all adults going forward, there is no conceivable way that it will not impact the next generation after us, if demand remains even 15% of what it is now or higher. Add in the notion that propaganda / lies are being conveyed as 'scientific fact' and it compounds the issue exponentially. It's not like humanity has never been down this road before. We have and there are many other examples existing now but on topics that an eCig forum perhaps cares very little about.
Now, those who have demand/desire to use eCigs are essentially being told to take it underground, do it in secret. As that won't really impact demand, and will just give rise to a supply side that is underground, then the war that is coming is really going to be waged between the next generation of suppliers and anyone that stands opposed to them. As long as demand is there, the suppliers will be as well. Kill off (figurative speaking) 50% of the suppliers today and that vacuum will be filled faster than what I think most wish to acknowledge. It likely won't be known how fast it is filled, or by whom, because somehow we are all supposed to like the idea that it is being done underground, and that is deemed 'sanity.'
As noted countless times before, the genie is out of the bottle. Yes, this is horrible news for the legal market going forward, but if demand remains anywhere near what it is now (and I'd go as low as 15% of what it is now), then those that stand opposed are engaging in a battle they will inevitably lose. In the process, could be another 100 years for that process to play out, kids will be used as pawns in the war. They will be people who were naive at first about what's at stake and yet a 5 year old today could be a general 20 years from now on either side of this war.
Before, or even today, we stand a chance to reasonably impact how kids figure into the eCig market. With the direction the FDA has put forth, kids will be engaged in the underground market/battle and only a fool will try to convince others that kids are being shielded from the war. Like all things, kids will learn just how much adults are willing to lie, to their faces, about some aspect of authority and think that won't come back and bite them.
This means war, and unless this is your first day on earth, the reality is those who oppose eCigs have so overplayed their hand, they have now guaranteed their demise.
I rejoice in knowing that.
I know we've got some before-and-after X-rays floating around here.
Although they are from a different poster and I wouldn't know how to find them.
As for me...
- When I was smoking I could hold my breath for around 30 seconds
- After 12 months of vaping I could hold my breath for around 90 seconds
- After 17 months of vaping I took a Pulmonary Function test and came out slightly better than average for my age, weight, and height
- After 30 months of vaping I could hold my breath for around 110 seconds
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This is where I believe every one gets it wrong. I have long since forgotten my references
to this but, a 95% reduction of harm means a 95% in reduction in the actual damage one
would experience from from no reduction at all. It is not a linear equation.
Look at it this way. Poke your finger with a needle. Now stick a ice pick between your
forth and fifth ribs. Let me know how that turns out.
Seriously even going by how you interpret it the Brits believe the reduction is
probably closer to 99%. At that rate when you take the margin of error in to account
vaping is 97 to 101% safer than smoking. + or Minus 2%. The affected group is too
small to determine with any certainty the natural occurrence of disease against
any harm caused by vaping.
In that case in the real world one could say vaping is not going to kill you.
it however may have some health related issues. When morbidity decreases
there becomes a point where mortality decreases at a ever increasing rate.
the inverse is also true. With only a 5% reduction in harm one would not see
a 5% decrease in mortality. For arguments sake lets say it would only be only
3%. Mortality would lag morbidity till a point where they would appear linear for a while
but, at the bottom of the scale mortality would drop off sharply as morbidity decreases
at a linear rate.
Regards
Mike
Sherrod Brown (D OH) one of the Senators who wrote letters to the FDA and OMB to pass the Deeming quickly, is on the short list for Hillary Clinton for Vice President.
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/272986-vp-buzz-for-sherrod-brown
he is a worthless POS and i havent liked him ever!they think they know whats best for us...effin asholes anyways.this is just what oscumbag meant by fundamentaly changing AMERICA
My understanding is that online sales can not be stopped...
Unless and until they amend the PACT Act to add electronic cigarettes...
I am pretty sure that is correct.
But don't quote me.
For most of us who are going to continue to vape in spite of whatever roadblocks the government fascists put in place, the things to accomplish now are to keep a years worth of vaping supplies on hand, including ample DIY materials.
My list now includes a couple of simple mechanical mods, even though I presently do not use them for safety reasons. (regulated mods are much safer to use in terms of faults) The obvious advantage of mechanical mods is they can be maintained indefinitely and building coils & wicks requires nothing the FDA idiots will be able to effectively ban. The same goes for simple flavorings. As many here point out, nicotine in quantities sufficient for average vapors to last for years is easily obtainable. I have a liter on hand now and will replenish it as consumed. The same goes for VG and PG base liquids, which should not be included in any FDA bans as they have many other uses.
My only "political" comment is, we now live in the United Socialist States of America where the federal government increasingly controls every aspect of our lives and individual choice and freedom is increasingly rare. Thank God my 75th birthday is coming up in September, so I wont have to put up with this crap as long as most.
My list now includes a couple of simple mechanical mods, even though I presently do not use them for safety reasons. (regulated mods are much safer to use in terms of faults) The obvious advantage of mechanical mods is they can be maintained indefinitely and building coils & wicks requires nothing the FDA idiots will be able to effectively ban. The same goes for simple flavorings. As many here point out, nicotine in quantities sufficient for average vapors to last for years is easily obtainable. I have a liter on hand now and will replenish it as consumed. The same goes for VG and PG base liquids, which should not be included in any FDA bans as they have many other uses.
My only "political" comment is, we now live in the United Socialist States of America where the federal government increasingly controls every aspect of our lives and individual choice and freedom is increasingly rare. Thank God my 75th birthday is coming up in September, so I wont have to put up with this crap as long as most.
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