Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

bigdancehawk

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Only concern should be on actual Constitutionality of action.....;)

I have the right to believe you can believe what you want.......and so can I :D
Speaking of the Constitution, and trying to get back on topic, if a statute is hopelessly vague, such that people can't figure out what it covers and what it doesn't so that they can adjust their behavior accordingly, the statute may be declared "void for vagueness" and thus unconstitutional. The FSPTCA, particularly as interpreted and applied by the FDA, may be void for vagueness and I am surprised that neither of the lawsuits filed to date has made this attack.

Specifically, The FSPTCA defines "tobacco product" to mean "any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product)."

This definition is badly flawed. When writing a definition, you must not include the defined term in the definition. This is particularly important when writing statutory definitions. It makes the definition circle back on itself.

In this case, when a "tobacco product" is initially limited to things which are made or derived from tobacco, and then they try to expand the definition to include other things, but those other things must also be "of a tobacco product" as initially defined, then it would seem to me that these other things could only qualify as tobacco products if they were likewise made or derived from tobacco. That would exclude such things as atomizers and battery powered mods, which conceptually differ very little, if at all, from smoking pipes--just equipment for using tobacco and things derived from tobacco.
 

Katya

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Department of Anesthesiology, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN; Nicotine Dependence Center, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN - First published online: January 31, 2016

Feasibility of Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems in Surgical Patients

Conclusion: "ENDS use is feasible in adult smokers scheduled for elective surgery and is associated with a reduction in perioperative cigarette consumption. These results support further exploration of ENDS as a means to help surgical patients reduce or eliminate their cigarette consumption around the time of surgery."

Bookmarked! Thanks, O! :)
 

Eskie

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This single issue idea is making my head spin. I'm going to have to think long and hard about whether I could support a legislator who is pro-vaping, but against other things I believe in.

Dean Heller on the Issues

This really bothers me:

Rated 100% by the AU, indicating opposition to separation of church & state.

Dean Heller on Principles & Values

Yeah, that's the problem with single issue voting. Will I vote for someone who will let me vape, but who I disagree with on other important matters that will affect the future of the country and the world my child will live in? I honestly can't do that.

Do I want to continue to vape? Sure. But at the end of the day, I'd rather turn to the dark and dangerous world of underground vaping if it means someone in office who will otherwise serve this country well. Besides, we already know that attempts to control "vices" have always failed miserably. So will over-regulation of the vape market. Who knows, maybe becoming a "juice runner" at this point in my life could be exciting and glamorous.
 

Myrany

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Begin Harebrained idea

I wonder if we couldn't get Black Lives Matter working on our side given the high rate of smoking and smoking related health issues/deaths in the Black community.

ie. The FDA is killing Black people by their destruction of a potentially life saving alternative.

end Harebrained idea
 

Bronze

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Begin Harebrained idea

I wonder if we couldn't get Black Lives Matter working on our side given the high rate of smoking and smoking related health issues/deaths in the Black community.

ie. The FDA is killing Black people by their destruction of a potentially life saving alternative.

end Harebrained idea
Count me out. :)
 

frizzy_tyger

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Speaking of the Constitution, and trying to get back on topic, if a statute is hopelessly vague, such that people can't figure out what it covers and what it doesn't so that they can adjust their behavior accordingly, the statute may be declared "void for vagueness" and thus unconstitutional. The FSPTCA, particularly as interpreted and applied by the FDA, may be void for vagueness and I am surprised that neither of the lawsuits filed to date has made this attack.

Specifically, The FSPTCA defines "tobacco product" to mean "any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product)."

This definition is badly flawed. When writing a definition, you must not include the defined term in the definition. This is particularly important when writing statutory definitions. It makes the definition circle back on itself.

In this case, when a "tobacco product" is initially limited to things which are made or derived from tobacco, and then they try to expand the definition to include other things, but those other things must also be "of a tobacco product" as initially defined, then it would seem to me that these other things could only qualify as tobacco products if they were likewise made or derived from tobacco. That would exclude such things as atomizers and battery powered mods, which conceptually differ very little, if at all, from smoking pipes--just equipment for using tobacco and things derived from tobacco.

I didn't realize a statute could be "declared void for vagueness." That could make a good lawsuit against the FSPTCA. Though the regulations also cover smoking pipes as currently written so comparing them in this case wouldn't much unfortunately.
 
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Spazmelda

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Speaking of vagueness... I had something in the letter I wrote to Senator Johnson along that line. It had more to do with FDA issuing these regulations, but having no idea what they were actually looking for. I mean, as far as I know they haven't issued any specifications, like less than x ppm of diacetyl or formaldehyde or whatever in liquid or vapor, nicotine within x% +/- label, etc...

Usually with drug products there will be specified limits of undesirable contaminants or degradation products and specified ranges for active ingredients. I don't know if it's too early in the process for this, but right now it just seems like a fishing expedition. "Just show us what you get and we will tell you if it's okay or not (it won't be okay, btw).

Anyway, I had something like that in there but I couldn't get it to come out making sense, and my letter was too long already, so I just took it out.
 

Kent C

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This single issue idea is making my head spin. I'm going to have to think long and hard about whether I could support a legislator who is pro-vaping, but against other things I believe in.

Dean Heller on the Issues

This really bothers me:

Rated 100% by the AU, indicating opposition to separation of church & state.

Dean Heller on Principles & Values

I think there's some misprint here:

Under your last link it says:

"Heller scores 100% Americans United for the Separation of Church and State

Scoring system for 2014: Ranges from 0% (supports separation of church & state) to 100% (opposed to separation of church & state)."

But the link to AU says just the opposite:

Public Notes on 06n-AU

OnTheIssues.org interprets the 2006 AU scores as follows:
  • 0%- 20%: opposition to church-state separation (approx. 232 members)
  • 21%- 79%: mixed record on church-state separation (approx. 79 members)
  • 80%-100%: support of church-state separation (approx. 153 members)
 

The Ocelot

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Yeah, that's the problem with single issue voting. Will I vote for someone who will let me vape, but who I disagree with on other important matters that will affect the future of the country and the world my child will live in? I honestly can't do that.

Do I want to continue to vape? Sure. But at the end of the day, I'd rather turn to the dark and dangerous world of underground vaping if it means someone in office who will otherwise serve this country well. Besides, we already know that attempts to control "vices" have always failed miserably. So will over-regulation of the vape market. Who knows, maybe becoming a "juice runner" at this point in my life could be exciting and glamorous.

NASCAR belongs to bootlegging, you'll have to invent a new sport. And another movie...

SmokeyBandit_218Pyxurz.jpg

Ex-Smoker and the Banned juice​
 

Spazmelda

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I think there's some misprint here:

Under your last link it says:

"Heller scores 100% Americans United for the Separation of Church and State

Scoring system for 2014: Ranges from 0% (supports separation of church & state) to 100% (opposed to separation of church & state)."

But the link to AU says just the opposite:

Public Notes on 06n-AU

OnTheIssues.org interprets the 2006 AU scores as follows:
  • 0%- 20%: opposition to church-state separation (approx. 232 members)
  • 21%- 79%: mixed record on church-state separation (approx. 79 members)
  • 80%-100%: support of church-state separation (approx. 153 members)

This page gives him a score of 24% (0% would be completely opposed, 100% would be completely in favor, if I'm reading it right)

Political Scorecards - Bill Stamp
 

nicnik

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Speaking of the Constitution, and trying to get back on topic, if a statute is hopelessly vague, such that people can't figure out what it covers and what it doesn't so that they can adjust their behavior accordingly, the statute may be declared "void for vagueness" and thus unconstitutional. The FSPTCA, particularly as interpreted and applied by the FDA, may be void for vagueness and I am surprised that neither of the lawsuits filed to date has made this attack.

Specifically, The FSPTCA defines "tobacco product" to mean "any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product)."

This definition is badly flawed. When writing a definition, you must not include the defined term in the definition. This is particularly important when writing statutory definitions. It makes the definition circle back on itself.

In this case, when a "tobacco product" is initially limited to things which are made or derived from tobacco, and then they try to expand the definition to include other things, but those other things must also be "of a tobacco product" as initially defined, then it would seem to me that these other things could only qualify as tobacco products if they were likewise made or derived from tobacco. That would exclude such things as atomizers and battery powered mods, which conceptually differ very little, if at all, from smoking pipes--just equipment for using tobacco and things derived from tobacco.
So, would that have been avoided if they had used the word "and" in place of "including"?
 

nicnik

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Yeah, that's the problem with single issue voting. Will I vote for someone who will let me vape, but who I disagree with on other important matters that will affect the future of the country and the world my child will live in? I honestly can't do that.

Do I want to continue to vape? Sure. But at the end of the day, I'd rather turn to the dark and dangerous world of underground vaping if it means someone in office who will otherwise serve this country well. Besides, we already know that attempts to control "vices" have always failed miserably. So will over-regulation of the vape market. Who knows, maybe becoming a "juice runner" at this point in my life could be exciting and glamorous.
I am not, and will not be a single issue voter. I will always, however, give great weight in my decision to any issue with millions of lives at steak.
 

Kent C

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This page gives him a score of 24% (0% would be completely opposed, 100% would be completely in favor, if I'm reading it right)

Political Scorecards - Bill Stamp

I looked into it a bit and there was one vote when he was in the House where he voted to assign some land to the Scouts and Hale Scouts.

What happens (and it happens on both sides) a vote like this because the Scouts have a religious aspect to them and in some places an anti-gay aspect, then the Separation of Church and State and the LGBT activists go ballistic and downgrade (or upgrade the "no" votes) in their grading process.

There may be more to it than that but that is one vote I saw listed on an AU site.
 
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The Ocelot

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I think there's some misprint here:

Under your last link it says:

"Heller scores 100% Americans United for the Separation of Church and State

Scoring system for 2014: Ranges from 0% (supports separation of church & state) to 100% (opposed to separation of church & state)."

But the link to AU says just the opposite:

Public Notes on 06n-AU

OnTheIssues.org interprets the 2006 AU scores as follows:
  • 0%- 20%: opposition to church-state separation (approx. 232 members)
  • 21%- 79%: mixed record on church-state separation (approx. 79 members)
  • 80%-100%: support of church-state separation (approx. 153 members)

I had to reread it a couple of times.

The page on Heller's voting record Dean Heller on the Issues states:

Rated 100% by the AU, indicating opposition to separation of church & state. (Jan 2013)

If you click on the link to go to the AU page Public Notes on 06n-AU
It does say:
  • 0%- 20%: opposition to church-state separation (approx. 232 members)
  • 21%- 79%: mixed record on church-state separation (approx. 79 members)
  • 80%-100%: support of church-state separation (approx. 153 members)
However, the above rating is from 2006.

If you click on the AU link to the page specifically on Heller it has the stats for 2014: Dean Heller on Principles & Values

"Heller scores 100% Americans United for the Separation of Church and State
Scoring system for 2014: Ranges from 0% (supports separation of church & state) to 100% (opposed to separation of church & state)."

Perhaps they changed it to make detail freaks like me crazy.
 

Kent C

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I had to reread it a couple of times.

The page on Heller's voting record Dean Heller on the Issues states:

Rated 100% by the AU, indicating opposition to separation of church & state. (Jan 2013)

If you click on the link to go to the AU page Public Notes on 06n-AU
It does say:
  • 0%- 20%: opposition to church-state separation (approx. 232 members)
  • 21%- 79%: mixed record on church-state separation (approx. 79 members)
  • 80%-100%: support of church-state separation (approx. 153 members)
However, the above rating is from 2006.

If you click on the AU link to the page specifically on Heller it has the stats for 2014: Dean Heller on Principles & Values

"Heller scores 100% Americans United for the Separation of Church and State
Scoring system for 2014: Ranges from 0% (supports separation of church & state) to 100% (opposed to separation of church & state)."

Perhaps they changed it to make detail freaks like me crazy.

Basically what I said in my post except the crazy part - which I've already allowed for :lol:

See my above note - it likely stems from that but there may be more.
 
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bigdancehawk

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I didn't realize a statute could be "declared void for vagueness." That could make a good lawsuit against the FSPTCA. Though the regulations also cover smoking pipes as currently written so comparing them in this case wouldn't much unfortunately.
Tell me you're kidding! I didn't bother with stuff dealing with combustible tobacco, so I had no idea. That's truly ridiculous. Can you imagine drawing up and filing an FDA approval application for a friggin' pipe? Explain what effect this pipe design will have on overall public health and back it up with detailed scientific data. LOL
 

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