Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[The Ocelot]

And these are the Same Cigarette Sellers who some believe are Sincere in getting the GF moved up to Include All Open System e-Cigarettes.

Didn't know it was So Easy for a Leopard to Change their Spots.

LOL

They aren't leopards, they are chameleons. It seems to me that the most visible pushback has been from vapers who use "open" systems and the venders who sell them.

At this point, there may be more users of closed systems overall, but we make more noise. BT is aware of statements in the media that closed systems are ineffective and that experienced vapers use, promote and will continue to buy open systems and components. BT wants an avenue into every section of the market. Being a small fish in a huge pond might be preferable to being a big fish in a small pond; either way, they still have tobacco cigarettes to sell.

A 2016 predicate date would probably benefit BT more than anyone else. Not only would their cigalikes be grandfathered in, but they could sell open systems. I can imagine BT buying a company like Vapor Shark and rebranding their devices.

 

[YoursTruli]

I have a dumb question. How will the FDA determine the product did or did not exist prior to the predicate date?

If you manufacture ENDS, these are some requirements that apply to you:

• Register establishment(s) and submit product listing to FDA by December 31, 2016 (this currently only applies to domestic manufacturers)
• Submit listing of ingredients
• Submit information on harmful and potentially harmful constituents (HPHCs)
• Submit tobacco health documents
• Do not introduce into interstate commerce modified risk tobacco products (e.g., products with label, labeling, or advertising representing that they reduce risk or are less harmful compared to other tobacco products on the market) without an FDA order
• Manufacture your tobacco product with the required warning statement on packaging and advertisements
• Market your tobacco product in compliance with other applicable statutory requirements, rules and regulations

• Foreign manufacturers will be required to register and list too, but this will require a separate regulation with its own effective date.

Vaporizers, E-Cigarettes, and other Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems (ENDS)

 

[crxess]

It died around page 308-309 - been grinding ever since.

Sorry, had to get a few hours rest

Notice how the grandfather date and "open" systems are specifically targeted.

Well Documented and Also documented in the UK and other EU countries as BT attempted to Pigeon Hole Vapor Products while leaving a Door open for thier Take over of the Market............Almost completely Backfired on the<(UK - Change of Stance, FDA - insane ANTZ Regulatory Actions)

Wow, no post for 2 1/2 hours? This thread is dying!

Temporary adjournment

Real ID Public FAQs | Homeland Security

Only touching on this as to after 9/11 Government comments like:
Terrorist will not dictate our way of life........

We still suffer the worst of the worst. Big corporations Not willing to invest in safety of their customers<get government to do it> and a Government that cannot find any sensible way to Safely reduce the interruption of Our lives by terrorist.

Government prefers to use Subversion:

The Latin root subvertere means “to turn from below,” and when you turn something on its head in a sneaky way, that's subversion.

Vaping is as bad as smoking

 

[The Ocelot]

Wow, no post for 2 1/2 hours? This thread is dying!

Now that we have a better idea of what's going on, and other threads have been started, I'm not surprised it's slowed down.

I'm trying to think of other programs we might contact. Bill Maher's production company doesn't accept story suggestions and talk shows are out since we don't have a guest to promote. Does anyone still watch The Dailey Show with whoever the new guy is? I don't have a TV, so any suggestions would be helpful.

 

[zoiDman]

...

A 2016 predicate date would probably benefit BT more than anyone else. Not only would their cigalikes be grandfathered in, but they could sell open systems. I can imagine BT buying a company like Vapor Shark and rebranding their devices.

Not sure why BT would Welcome unlimited competition in a Regulated e-Cigarette Market? Especially seeing that as the PMTA for ENDS are currently written, it leaves BT with Few Competitors who are Able/Willing to submit a PMTA Applications.

Seems like a Better Business Model for BT to remove its Competitors and just Sell its e-Cigarettes. And if they Don't sell well, oh shoot, I guess people will just have to go back to buying their Other product. Cigarettes.

I also don't think the FDA likes the Concept of Liquid e-Liquids in the consumer market.

But Hey, you may be Right.

 

[LoriP1702]

Now that we have a better idea of what's going on, and other threads have been started, I'm not surprised it's slowed down.

I'm trying to think of other programs we might contact. Bill Maher's production company doesn't accept story suggestions and talk shows are out since we don't have a guest to promote. Does anyone still watch The Dailey Show with whoever the new guy is? I don't have a TV, so any suggestions would be helpful.

Possibly Sean Hannity, but for his radio show. Not sure if he would do a segment on his evening show on Fox, but it might be worth a try for both.
I know on his radio show, he has done commercials for NJOY, and if he's telling the truth, he has said he wished that his parents could have found e-cigarettes years ago.
He has live call in hours too for the radio show, I can't tell you what time it starts though. It's been awhile since I've listened.
But, he's ALL about smaller govt.

 

[The Ocelot]

I have a dumb question. How will the FDA determine the product did or did not exist prior to the predicate date?

They have already have that covered:

Final Rule pages 20-21

FDA also is continuing to research e-cigarettes, other ENDS, and heated cigarette products that likely were on the market "as of" (i.e., on) February 15, 2007. Additionally, FDA has determined that some e-cigarettes and other ENDS were manufactured in 2006 and commercially marketed in the United States in early 2007.

In particular, we have identified an ENDS product that may have been on the market on February 15, 2007. This product may possibly be able to serve as a valid predicate for purposes of the SE pathway. The burden of demonstrating that a valid predicate exists rests with the manufacturer submitting a SE report.

Translation: We've done our research and while we said "some" at the beginning of the paragraph, we really mean "one"...maybe. If you think you have a product that may qualify it's up to you to prove it.

A footnote on page 20: FDA Guidance states that "f you cannot provide documentation specifically dated on February 15, 2007, FDA suggests you provide documentation of commercial marketing for a reasonable period of time before and after February 15, 2007." Guidance for Industry entitled "Establishing That a Tobacco Product Was Commercially Marketed in the United States as of February 15, 2007 (79 FR 58358, Sept. 29, 2014), The guidance also provides examples of sources of evidence, e.g., bills of lading.

It seems like a lot of the FDA budget goes into writing things hardly anyone will read. Just think about the number of steps and the number of people involved from proposal to approval.

 

[nicnik]

This discusses a bit of that. Sorry if it has already been posted, I saw it on another thread. This is from Newsweek:

http://www.newsweek.com/vaping-big-tobacco-big-gamble-future-451074

So, BT was promoting FDA's bullying of vape shops. The result - no mixing, no coil building...

According to a special report by Reuters in 2015, tobacco giants such as RJ Reynolds and Altria have petitioned the FDA to treat small vape shops—which offer a plethora of different flavors and mods to customers—as manufacturers, teeing the independent outfits up for a storm of inspections and regulations they would find difficult to weather at their comparatively small size.

 

[nicnik]

There's this big yellow ball, a self-sustaining coil unit ( aka sun ).
Heating a small ball, brimming with dihydrogen monoxide that get vaporized.

I, for one, never believed cloud blowers would be satistfied stopping at 200 watts.

 

[The Ocelot]

Not sure why BT would Welcome unlimited competition in a Regulated e-Cigarette Market? Especially seeing that as the PMTA for ENDS are currently written, it leaves BT with Few Competitors who are Able/Willing to submit a PMTA Applications.

Seems like a Better Business Model for BT to remove its Competitors and just Sell its e-Cigarettes. And if they Don't sell well, oh shoot, I guess people will just have to go back to buying their Other product. Cigarettes.

I also don't think the FDA likes the Concept of Liquid e-Liquids in the consumer market.

But Hey, you may be Right.

I meant they are covering their bases either way. If the date is pushed forward to 2016 products currently on the market won't have to file PMTAs, including ones made by BT. So while new products couldn't afford to enter the market, there's nothing stopping BT from acquiring an existing product to sell as their brand. I think BT and unlimited competition are a contradiction in terms. That's just my take on it.

 

[classwife]

So, BT was promoting FDA's bullying of vape shops. The result - no mixing, no coil building...

According to a special report by Reuters in 2015, tobacco giants such as RJ Reynolds and Altria have petitioned the FDA to treat small vape shops—which offer a plethora of different flavors and mods to customers—as manufacturers, teeing the independent outfits up for a storm of inspections and regulations they would find difficult to weather at their comparatively small size.

Shame !...BT helping to get all of these small businesses shoved out !

NOT ANOTHER DIME !

 

[nicnik]

I'm trying to think of other programs we might contact. Bill Maher's production company doesn't accept story suggestions and talk shows are out since we don't have a guest to promote. Does anyone still watch The Dailey Show with whoever the new guy is? I don't have a TV, so any suggestions would be helpful.

Trevor Noah is the Daily Show host. If he does a piece on it before John Oliver does, it won't be nearly as good, and Oliver might not want to do what might appear to be a copycat show.

 

[Wing]

I'm trying to think of other programs we might contact. Bill Maher's production company doesn't accept story suggestions and talk shows are out since we don't have a guest to promote. Does anyone still watch The Dailey Show with whoever the new guy is? I don't have a TV, so any suggestions would be helpful.

This sounds like a job for John Oliver.
Some of his "expose's" have actually been rather productive.

 

[Bob Chill]

Below is a post I made just over a year ago in the "Is vaping doomed" thread. Looks like I wasn't too far off but still grossly underestimated how far the regs would reach in regards to hardware. I still believe hardware will still be able to be acquired in some form or another and won't be heavily policed. Juice is the obvious choke/control point. And it's easy to reign that in. States will surely all follow suit with cig style regulation/taxation over the coming year or 2.



"One thing is for certain. The landscape is going to drastically change on this industry. No two ways around it. There are multiple motivations across all parties involved in "reigning it in".
I've made myself heard as much as possible but I also know that there simply aren't enough of us even if we all spoke up to change what it coming down the pipe. There will be small victories of course but it's pretty unlikely for any large ones on the really important things. With the lowest hanging fruit being eliquid, I have zero expectations for free flowing juice from 100's of sources at today's prices to continue once the hammer drops.

If there was such a thing as a nicotine bean like a coffee bean where you could just brew a cup then I would be more optimistic. But the nicotine we use comes from a complicated chemical process exclusively using tobacco leaves for the source. It's not something any of us have the capabilities to extract ourselves. So there's the choke and it's an easy one. I personally doubt a black market will exist for nic base. It will be a crime. Yea, moonshine is a black market but not for the masses and few want to risk it. I personally don't want to risk using underground nicotine base. It's not worth it.

Hardware is very low tech even with the latest and greatest regulated mods. I'm not worried nearly as much about hardware as I am about what type of controls will be put on the juice market. The tax math scares me because how will States decide what is equivalent to a pack of cigarettes? Blu claims their disposables are = to 1.5 packs of cigarettes. Of course we know that's not how it works but how will "they" calculate it for a tax stamp? Scary stuff.

IF bottled juice is still permitted, who will be allowed to make it? IMO- only those with deep enough pockets to afford the "approval process". I suppose companies like Johnson Creek stand a decent chance among a handful of others. There will be a swift consolidation in that part of the market and it won't include your corner B&M. They will likely become simple resellers for the fortunate "approved manufacturers". Pretty much like a local beer and wine. Walmart or other large retailers could corner the market with their purchasing power and thin margins if the industry went in that direction.

If bottled nic is permitted then unflavored will be a near certainty. Even if expensive compared to today's market, having unflavored nic leaves the door wide open for folks to make their own flavored blend. Anybody can sell artificial flavor blends for "cooking". The end user just needs to know how much to put in. Easy peasy. I've been DIY for the last 18 months. It's really easy.

Unfortunately (and I hope I'm wrong)....IMHO- the best case scenario would still allow bottled nic and refillable tanks etc but it can only be purchased face to face after a tax stamp is put on it."

 

[zoiDman]

I meant they are covering their bases either way. If the date is pushed forward to 2016 products currently on the market won't have to file PMTAs, including ones made by BT. So while new products couldn't afford to enter the market, there's nothing stopping BT from acquiring an existing product to sell as their brand. I think BT and unlimited competition are a contradiction in terms. That's just my take on it.

You might be Right.

But since Moving the GF Date to today Diametrically changes a Regulated e-Cigarette market, I see a Fundamental question that BT would be asking themselves...

I guess, if you're BT, it gets down to do you Want Everyone to be Grandfathered and not have to do PMTA's?

Or would you Rather want to have Everyone do a PMTA when Very Few could Afford it?

 

[Steamix]

Not sure why BT would Welcome unlimited competition in a Regulated e-Cigarette Market? Especially seeing that as the PMTA for ENDS are currently written, it leaves BT with Few Competitors who are Able/Willing to submit a PMTA Applications.

Seems like a Better Business Model for BT to remove its Competitors and just Sell its e-Cigarettes. And if they Don't sell well, oh shoot, I guess people will just have to go back to buying their Other product. Cigarettes.

I also don't think the FDA likes the Concept of Liquid e-Liquids in the consumer market.

But Hey, you may be Right.

It's a very possible scenario though.

If the last smoker switched to vaping - then what ?

According to the RCP report the gateway theory of vapers picking up tobacco sticks doesn't hold water.
This fraction of a fraction of a percent that actually does won't be anywhere near enough to keep BT in the money - unless they'd be charging like 20k a pack or so.

Vaping bites the hand that unvoluntarily feeds it - overwhelming majority of vapers started out as smokers.

So again : If the last smoker switches over to vaping - then what ?

Live and let live. As we basically wanna be left in peace while puffing away at our mods, we have no problems letting others choose their lifestyle as they see fit. Smoke. Your business. Vape. Your business too. But we were never actively encouraging non-smokers to come vaping. If someone decides to take that path - their business too.

Once smokes are done vapes will do themselves in. Eventually. And there will always be die-hard smokers as well as die-hard vapers.But the numbers certainly won't support BT and all the well-entrenched interests feeding off their proceeds too. Doesn't matter whether you call it taxes, research grants, processing fees, settlements.
All money coming out of BT's pockets. Which is ultimately your pocket whenever you buy a pack.

So they have to gainn control over vaping. Either by squashing it or buying it up. Or a mix of both. And they have to do so while they still have the financial clout to do so.
Vaping indstry has grown rapidly. But I've read posts here. Compared to what BT is raking in, that's still peanuts.
But it could grow into a coconut rapidly if BT lets it.

They're like someone with his head stuck in a bucket full of water:

You have to drink it up really fast to keep from drowning.

 

[The Ocelot]

Trevor Noah is the Daily Show host. If he does a piece on it before John Oliver does, it won't be nearly as good, and Oliver might not want to do what might appear to be a copycat show.

There's nothing wrong with trying everyone, since they may not have the same audience. Plus, topical is topical, no one is a copycat for covering the same news story. However, one thing I will not do is send anyone the same message I sent Oliver. My message has potential joke ideas and those belong to him, whether he decides to use them or not. Beating him to a topic is one thing, beating him to a joke is another

 

[crxess]

I don't have a TV, so any suggestions would be helpful.

How in the world does one keep up with Science Fiction......soon to be reality....without a TV

J/K, my Grandchildren Watch streaming video non-stop
The Big Screen is just easier on my old eyes
Of course my laptop is tuned to ECF 24/7/365

 

[The Ocelot]

This sounds like a job for John Oliver.
Some of his "expose's" have actually been rather productive.

crxess and I have already contacted him. It won't hurt if you do as well, he might be more inclined to cover a topic he know a lot of people are interested in

 

[zoiDman]

...

So they have to gainn control over vaping. Either by squashing it or buying it up. Or a mix of both. ...

Here is the Thing though.

BT doesn't "Need" to Squash the e-Cigarette Market. All they have to do is Sit Back and let the FDA do it for them.

And what's left in 2 Years? A System that Only Allows people like BT to afford to bring Products into a Regulated Market.

And PMTA Costs seem a whole Hell of a lot Cheaper than trying to do the Microsoft thing where you systematically buy out all your Competition.