Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[wiredlove]

I agree with your entire line of reasoning, that we needed to distance ourselves from tobacco earlier on in this debate, and also (I believe it was your point) about even distancing nicotine from tobacco and the whole issue with supporting age restrictions.

I also agree that we need to start looking forward (again) from our new position of peril - but I think we're failing again. I think, at this point, we need voices, as many voices as we can get, speaking of outrage and hypocrisy. We need so many voices, if we hope to get anything done, that we NEED non-vapers to be screaming as loud as those of us with a personal stake...but we're failing to even get the actual vapers to take notice. And, it's our fault.

The experience I had at one of my local B&Ms yesterday was almost the exact same I've had three times now. (Sorry in advance for the long story, but you've all probably figured out by now that that is how my brain works.)

It wasn't a shop that I frequent, because their prices are a little crazy, but the current step in my carefully crafted stockpile plan is to get several mech mods, and I've been hitting all the shops to see what they had.

While I was checking out the mechs, another customer walks in with a broken regulated box and starts talking to the shop keeper about a new one. The owner showed him some options and said the best one he had was a Subbox kit ($95!!?!?), which is what I had walked in with, so the owner asked me how I liked mine, hoping for a positive review that would help him.

I told him I thought it was a good upgrade to his broken box (not wanting to get into fixing the broken one, or the ridiculous price they had on the Subbox, out of respect for the shop), and the other customer asked if he'd need one of the battery tubes I was looking at, too; "is that like an extension or something?"

The customer had said that his broken box had only lasted a year, he was using an aspire tank with packaged coils, and that he wanted a new box that would work with his tank and his battery. It was pretty obvious he was a one-device, store-bought kind of guy, who got all/most of his info from the shop where he bought his coils and juice- the kind that will be most devastated by these new regs.

I explained that the "battery tube" was a separate mod, and that I was stockpiling extra gear in light of the upcoming regs/bans.

"What regs?"

So I did the "elevator-speech" version of what's happening that I've sort-of distilled after talking to so many casual-vaper and maybe-vaper friends/family/co-workers.

The customer was floored, but so was the shop owner. He stopped me and said "nothing's being banned, the government is just posturing..."

The guy was standing in front of one of the CASAA posters that says something like "This shop supports your right to vape...join CASAA", so I was a little confused that the owner, obviously affiliated with the advocacy groups in some manner or another, could understand the situation so poorly.

So, to try to help, I started to flesh out the points in the "elevator-speech" a little, and the shop owner stopped me again, getting a little agitated. He explained to me and the other customer the grandfather date, what the predicate product, if there really was one, would look like, the PMTA process, and even cited the Nicopure suit, and the injunction that was "sure to come".

...so the shop owner clearly was following the regs and the developments...

I countered that the litigation steps being taken might help, but there was no guarantee of victory, or even an injunction and...

He shut me down again. To the other customer, "Trust me. WE know what's going on. This thing is going to be tied up forever and nothing is going to happen."

I let it be, paid for what I'd picked out and left. His shop, his atmosphere, not my place to upset it.

But it bothered me.

This is the third time I'd had an experience similar to this one. Granted, the other two were not as hostile, but in both other cases, the shop owners wanted me and the other customers to rest easy and trust that "they" had it all under control.

They're the church, we're just the parishioners. Let the adults handle it.

I spent a good while thinking about it, and I suppose I can see some possible reasons why a retailer might want to downplay the concern, but it goes against everything I've learned about grass-roots advocacy.

In my industry, the retailers don't try to downplay the concern, they use it. When there is a new legislative attack, the gun shop owners will actually hang signs "get it while you still can", and run specials on products that are subject to new restrictions. They WANT every customer to know what the current threats are, when they walk in the door, whether they buy the thing or not, so that they will at least tell someone else after they leave.

My experience above is not unique, but is also not typical of my recent shopping experiences (I've visited A LOT of vape shops the last several months). I travel for work and visit as many local shops as I can find on each trip, and I've had a couple strong advocates (only a couple), a BUNCH of totally oblivious shops, and, then, three like the one I described above.

Why, in light of the fact that our life-saving "hobby" is facing a near-total ban, have I NEVER been asked, as soon as I walked in the door, if I was aware that my right to vape is being mortally threatened?

Never mind that it doesn't happen EVERY time, why haven't I heard it even once?

Is SFATA (I'm obviously not a member) sending out mailers to instruct retailers on the importance of informing their customers of what is happening? If not, why not?

Even if SFATA can't get their transmission in gear for a simple advisory like that, why are the retailers failing to see the importance of a well-informed customer base?

Most of my purchases have had a POS that asked for an email to send my receipt. Why hasnt SFATA asked their retailers for email lists, and handed them over to CASAA for daily call-to-action/donation-drive emails?

Why hasn't SFATA provided their retailers with ready-made email blasts for them to send out directly?

Why? Because of this industry's lack of maturity and focus that I've been ranting about for the last 400 pages.

Because, to the nexus point of your post and this one, with very few individual exceptions, this industry either doesn't want to, or just isn't capable of looking forward. They are, I'm afraid, going to continue fighting defensive battles that are already lost until they've defended their way right into losing the war.

if they're informed, as is the case in this particular case - having a customer in front of them ready to buy, in their mind, outweighs the future 'potential' losses.

 

[Buckeyevapen]

Can anyone Shed light on this Statement?

I believe what they are TRYING to imply is that once someone gets a single mod or a single tank approved they might be able to use it as a predicate for other tanks or mods.

Enter grain of salt.

Of course this means that they would have to approve something in the first place. I'll be on isle 9 holding my breath for THAT to happen.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

Because the first company that hands over my email address to a third party will never, ever get my business again. I don't care what the reasons are, companies should not be handing over customer information like that.

I respect that position, however it is untenable...unless you've NEVER ordered anything on-line.

Half of the junk email you get comes from personal accounts that get hacked, and happen to have your email in their contacts, the other half comes from companies who've bought your info from other companies you've purchased from.

Now, if Target or Walmart use/sell your info for marketing purposes, it is with a pure profit motivation.

If, on the other hand, SFATA asked for it, and gave it to CASAA for email blasting purposes, it is for the purpose of consumer-advocacy and education.

You, and others, and even I, may not like the practice, but, if we're not doing it, we're the ONLY industry not doing it.

Principles are great, but sometimes you have to pick and choose between them.

Which matters more to you, an extra sliver of privacy for your public email address, or your right to tobacco harm reduction?

Not judging either way you choose, just pointing out that they are mutually exclusive.

 

[wiredlove]

I respect that position, however it is untenable...unless you've NEVER ordered anything on-line.

Half of the junk email you get comes from personal accounts that get hacked, and happen to have your email in their contacts, the other half comes from companies who've bought your info from other companies you've purchased from.

Now, if Target or Walmart use/sell your info for marketing purposes, it is with a pure profit motivation.

If, on the other hand, SFATA asked for it, and gave it to CASAA for email blasting purposes, it is for the purpose of consumer-advocacy and education.

You, and others, and even I, may not like the practice, but, if we're not doing it, we're the ONLY industry not doing it.

It would be a better if the trade organizations sent the vendors/b&m an approved message and had the vendors, who were willing given that information, send the message on the org's behalf.

 

[beckdg]

As large as the US debt keeps getting probably not.
But can you imagine how long it would take the feds to process
all those PMTAs, especially at the typical bureaucrat pace?

Regards,
Hazy

I'd assume over 90% could be processed in under 30 minutes...

Using the same filing system many of us use for certain portions of our mail.

Though I also assume rather than be true to their intentions, the institution blessed with the authority to dismiss our products will have a small warehouse of shelves and filing boxes dedicated to products they never intend on testing.

Tapatyped

 

[bigdancehawk]

It shouldn't come as a big surprise to you by now that the public has been duped into believing Canola oil is healthy when quite the opposite is true. Aggressive marketing campaigns, money changing hands (to the FDA's benefit of course), misinformation, disinformation, etc. All the things that have been discussed in this forum.

This article is pretty typical of what I've found if you want a brief rundown. For real kicks, google for a detailed description of how this oil is processed. It's sickening.

https:// thetruthaboutcancer. com/canola-oil/

Why Canola Oil is Not the Healthy Oil You've Been Led to Believe | The Truth About Cancer

High smoke point tho. I still use it on my grill to prevent sticking.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

It would be a better if the trade organizations sent the vendors/b&m an approved message and had the vendors, who were willing given that information, send the message on the org's behalf.

That works too. That was one of the things I asked why wasn't already being done.

There are a bunch of vapers who are not nearly so involved as to spend much time on a forum like this, or watching advocacy videos, or watching hour-long FDA webinars. A BUNCH of them.

...and a good lot of them have email addresses on file with B&M shops.

The percentage of vapers that are aware of what is going on is so small, relative to the whole. Get that percentage up, and you can start to hope for getting non-vapers to be aware.

Spend too much time debating email privacy (to "protect" consumers who's email addresses have already been pimped out to hundreds of marketeers), or worrying about scaring off the next immediate-sale, and we won't have a battle left or fight.

 

[Buckeyevapen]

Here is our issue as a whole group and why we do not see more political will supporting us.

I was at work yesterday, outside vaping, and as has been my MO since "Deeming Day" I speak with fellow vapers about the FDAs actions.

Up walks a co worker from another department with a mec and a RDA. I asked him about the regs and he said, "oh when did they come out?" I was floored!!

Here I am only vaping for 7 months informing this long time vaper!!

Now mind you this is no "clouds bro" type. He had helped me in the past when I had normal rookie questions!

The more I talked the angrier he became. At every new point I made the common word was "how can they do that?" He immediately stated that he would start looking into what was going on.

The point of this story is this: we have assumed that because someone vapes that they understand what is at stake. Don't make this assumption; you see someone vaping bring it up!! 9 million is a strong political number which cannot be ignored but if 8.5 million don't even know how much the world has changed since 05/05/16 then why in the world would a politician stick their neck out for us? No politician does anything "because it's right". TALK TO EVERYONE!!

 

[wiredlove]

That works too. That was one of the things I asked why wasn't already being done.

There are a bunch of vapers who are not nearly so involved as to spend much time on a forum like this, or watching advocacy videos, or watching hour-long FDA webinars. A BUNCH of them.

...and a good lot of them have email addresses on file with B&M shops.

The percentage of vapers that are aware of what is going on is so small, relative to the whole. Get that percentage up, and you can start to hope for getting non-vapers to be aware.

Spend too much time debating email privacy (to "protect" consumers who's email addresses have already been pimped out to hundreds of marketeers), or worrying about scaring off the next immediate-sale, and we won't have a battle left or fight.

There's no debate. If I don't have a pre-existing relationship with an org or business, and you send me an email that goes out to 7 million other people who don't have an existing relationship with those people, you're a spammer. CASAA et al. dont need to be classified as such either in the mind of the general public or by the various security and spam tracking services

On the flip side, if I bought from you and didn't opt out - you're free to send me whatever until I click unsubscribe.

 

[retired1]

People, let's keep things on topic and stop posting links to junk science sites.

PLEASE READ! Breaking Links to Junk Science and Other Rubbish Posts

If it continues, we'll have no choice but to wade through and straight up delete.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

There's no debate. If I don't have a pre-existing relationship with an org or business, and you send me an email that goes out to 7 million other people who don't have an existing relationship with those people, you're a spammer. CASAA et al. dont need to be classified as such either in the mind of the general public or by the various security and spam tracking services

On the flip side, if I bought from you and didn't opt out - you're free to send me whatever until I click unsubscribe.

I think there is a debate.
No doubt the tactics I describe being necessary would be "spam".

But, in the modern age, when you need to get you message out to as many people as possible, you "spam".

People are currently being spammed by the mass-media, and the legions of ill-informed masses that they infect.

Spam can only be countered with spam. Even if the recipient thinks they don't like the message, repetition fosters roots.

 

[wiredlove]

I think there is a debate.
No doubt the tactics I describe being necessary would be "spam".

But, in the modern age, when you need to get you message out to as many people as possible, you "spam".

People are currently being spammed by the mass-media, and the legions of ill-informed masses that they infect.

Spam can only be countered with spam. Even if the recipient thinks they don't like the message, repetition fosters roots.

(1) The sending of Unsolicited Bulk Email ("UBE") is banned by all Internet service providers worldwide.

(2) Spamhaus's anti-spam blocklist, the SBL, used by more than 1 Billion Internet users, is based on the internationally-accepted definition of Spam as "Unsolicited Bulk Email". Therefore anyone sending UBE on the Internet, regardless of whether the content is commercial or not, illegal or not, is a sender of spam - and thus a spammer. All senders of UBE need to be fully aware that (A) they are breaking their ISP's Terms of Business contracts and they will lose their Internet accounts and access if they send UBE and (B) they will be placed on the Spamhaus Block List (SBL) if they send UBE.

The Spamhaus Project - The Definition of Spam

 

[VNeil]

I believe what they are TRYING to imply is that once someone gets a single mod or a single tank approved they might be able to use it as a predicate for other tanks or mods.

Enter grain of salt.

Of course this means that they would have to approve something in the first place. I'll be on isle 9 holding my breath for THAT to happen.

Can you copy/paste a single sentence in that 499 pages implying that OPEN SYSTEM devices might be approved? I have not seen it yet.

There is very clear language implying open systems cannot meet the threshold (requiring evidence that any/all configurations are safe, and etc). The only implication I've seen is that a handful of BT cigalikes will get approval.

I understand the need to hope; that is fundamental to the human condition. But there is no evidence to support that hope. Correct me with the relevant passage if I'm wrong...

 

[DaveP]

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutFDA/ReportsManualsForms/Reports/EconomicAnalyses/UCM500254.pdf

FDA already has a New term for Us in case they ever loose the Addictive Debate.



So now we all are Habitual users. Isn't that a Roll-over from the DRUG side? I'd class that as Abusive and Degrading.

I"m also a habitual user of Coca-Cola and various items that contain Sugar. Anyone who has a sweet tooth is in my classification. I vape for enjoyment after using vapor products to quit my 40 year smoking habit.

I won't go back to smoking after 6 years of cessation, but I'll find a way to keep on vaping. Hardware on sale these days is a good way to guarantee a supply. I'm picking and choosing and building my backup stash here and there.

I guess that I'm going to have to DIY juice at some point. I just hate to have nicotine in my freezer, but it's inevitable.

 

[retired1]

I just hate to have nicotine in my freezer, but it's inevitable.

That's a no brainer. You purchase another freezer just for vape supplies.

 

[coldgin96]

(1) The sending of Unsolicited Bulk Email ("UBE") is banned by all Internet service providers worldwide.

(2) Spamhaus's anti-spam blocklist, the SBL, used by more than 1 Billion Internet users, is based on the internationally-accepted definition of Spam as "Unsolicited Bulk Email". Therefore anyone sending UBE on the Internet, regardless of whether the content is commercial or not, illegal or not, is a sender of spam - and thus a spammer. All senders of UBE need to be fully aware that (A) they are breaking their ISP's Terms of Business contracts and they will lose their Internet accounts and access if they send UBE and (B) they will be placed on the Spamhaus Block List (SBL) if they send UBE.

The Spamhaus Project - The Definition of Spam

 

[coldgin96]

That's a no brainer. You purchase another freezer just for vape supplies.

God keeps telling me what to do. We just moved into a house with a brand new unused upright freezer in the utility room.

 

[DaveP]

That's a no brainer. You purchase another freezer just for vape supplies.

That's probably a good idea, but it's another compressor running on the electric bill. We just bought a new 21 CF stand up freezer and gave our old 14 CF flip top chest freezer to a charity organization. There's plenty of room for a 100mg bottle of nic mix in the new one. I'd just want it wrapped well enough to withstand a possible leak. A good snap top container with heavy duty zip locks inside should cover that.

I'd only buy 100mg/ml and use that to make 3mg/ml juice.

 

[LoriP1702]

Has this been discussed? I'm not caught up here...
White House scrapped FDA plan to restrict flavored e-cigarettes

I'm also at work and can't research any of it...

 

[retired1]

That's probably a good idea, but it's another compressor running on the electric bill. We just bought a new 21 CF stand up freezer and gave our old 14 CF flip top chest freezer to a charity organization. There's plenty of room for a 100mg bottle of nic mix in the new one. I'd just want it wrapped well enough to withstand a possible leak. A good snap top container with heavy duty zip locks inside should cover that.

Doesn't have to be a full sized unit. There are tons of smaller freezers that would work perfectly for the storage of nicotine.

For example: Whynter 2 cu. ft. 62 Qt. Dual Zone Portable Freezer in Gray-FM-62DZ - The Home Depot