Do they kiss their Babies with those mouths?
I think they do, in the Prius when they're on the way to Whole Foods to get the organic non gmo kale.
Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
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I think they do, in the Prius when they're on the way to Whole Foods to get the organic non gmo kale.
Don't take this the Wrong Way. Becomes it Isn't meant to be Snark. But I Couldn't Care Less if Sen. Johnson is running for Re-Election in November.
Are the actions of the FDA Fair, Balanced, and even Remotely Science Based? No. They are Not.
Do I believe Sen. Johnson as the Chairman of an Oversight Committee has a Responsibility to Question the FDA Actions and to Ask/Demand that the FDA Justify its Actions? Absolutely I do.
I'm with you on this sentiment. I just believe that many people here have latched onto the Senators request as a signal we'll get some justice here, I'm pointing out in the real world application of American politics this could be nothing more than a symbolic jesture when all is said and done.
If the senator loses his re-election bid his replacement may very well not share his zeal to pursue the issue.
My humble prediction is the FDA will string along his request then bury him with mountains of paper work.
With the short attention span of politicians and the general public we could be left wondering what happened to our senatorial advocate.
Thats all I'm saying
Oy, crxess... let's not go there. We're all smokers, former or otherwise. I understand that many vapers don't want to inhale second hand cigarette smoke anymore, but let's not start demonizing smokers now in the same fashion that the ANTZ are demonizing both smokers and vapers. Please, pretty.
I'm under No Illusions that Sen Johnson can wave a Magic Wand and Poof, deeming will Go Away. Or that the current FDA will not use All means to Hamper any type of Actions that and Oversight Committee can levy against them.
But I also believe that Parts of the Deeming can be Changed/Modified that would be a Significant Benefit to the e-Cigarette Market. And Anything that can be Changed/Modified in a Non-Judicial arena Frees Up resources that are Sorely Needed.
An Oversight Committee can also act as "Discovery" for information that might be Very Difficult to obtain thru Other means.
2 more lawsuits against the FDA, this time from the cigar side:
Two More Lawsuits Filed Against the FDA - Vaping360
Two More Lawsuits Filed Against the FDA - Vaping360
And that's the silver bullet! Only problem is being able to get that far before we possibly lose our friend.
Not at all.
Should I decide to stand with a Smoker, enjoy my Vape and maybe strike up conversation, That is MY Choice.
A Non-Smoking or Clean AIR Official has no Right to Tell me MY lungs are unimportant and Begone to the Pity.
To Dictate to a Person seeking lower Risk, better health, They haven't the right is unconscionable and completely unacceptable.
*I am not anti smoking, and have never given my Smoker wife of 42 years any reason to think otherwise.
I do have COPD and Gubment Needs to GET A LIFE!
"It can’t hurt us to be in the same boat as established industries like cigars and pipe tobacco. One might even hope to find a sympathetic ear in Washington among judges and legislators, many of whom indulge in a cigar now and then."
@Lessifer @Kent C
I can see both sides of this.
From my viewpoint over looking the Mississippi River Valley up here
on the Eastside of Saint Paul things are not looking very optimistic
if I am to expect a lot of guidance from the B$M's here.
Of the four stores I had asked about their plans for the released regs,
three said we are looking in to it,one said quite frankly and the most
honestly I believe, he just didn't know. He was overwhelmed and stunned.
This from a young man who's family has been in the tobacco store business
for as long as he could remember. Their stores all have a good assortment
of everything e-cig from cigalikes to the newest box and tube mods although
they have dropped anything unregulated.(can't say I blame them.)
So what does this have to do with advocacy? It's hard to explain but I'll
try. Basically if you open up a store front here in Minnesota you automaticcaly
have a new business partner whether their name is on the paper work or not.
.Gov et al.
So lets open our new B&M here in Saint Paul. First off stay away from the downtown
area district if you can as it has an added sales tax assessment. Now you have just
the cities fire,health and safety inspectors and all the licences they require.
Then there's the city and state licenses and requirements. Now there's city and state
(+county) property tax and assessments. Then there are additional county requirements
in between the city and state requirements. State sales tax. Workmans comp and unemployment.
You hope Saint Pauls planning and development or the Port Authority doesn't take a liking
to your location because that means your outa' there and the powers that be are going
to make big bucks off your property once they pay you fair market value that will triple
once your gone. Then there is the loose cannon,The Metropolitan Council our seven
county metro area non elected bunch of money grabbers. Lord knows what they'll be
up to to next. Being we are in the tobacco business now or have been if we also actually
sell real tobacco we have all the federal requirements to meet. But wait there's more.
Getting back to the young man I mentioned. He of all people knows what he's up against.
He has dealt with the government at all levels and knows what the government wants,the
government gets. Ticking off anyone in government at any level is like throwing rocks
at the hornets nest. A whole lot of angry hornets will decide to make your store front
their new favorite hang out. They wont like anything they see. They'll pull regulations
that have been buried so deep they hadn't seen the light of day since the whiskey
rebellion. I can understand why I don't see any advocacy materials in the stores or
from behind their counters. The store at the other end of the parking lot may be a health
food co-op. The one at the other end may an animal shelter. The one next store on either
side might be a CVS or a convenience store who's smokers switched to vaping. One must
stay mindful of their neighbors sensitivities. The only thing that could be worse is if you
own a bar.
Now I am am sure all these stores are working behind the scenes in their own way
very quietly. I do know that they know they are between a rock and a hard place
with a hornets nest sitting right above them. Turning their stores in to advocacy centers
may not be in their long term interests. Considering from what I have read in some posts
here some of their customers may be their worst enemies. Waiting for this all to shake out
to see what pieces remain may be the only realistic avenue of approach they have.
At least the stores that were already selling tobacco have a built in fall back position.
In Uber Liberal Minnesota I don't believe political activism mixed with commercial
activities will go over very well unless ones motives are politically aligned with the
powers that be. That's ok with me.
Regards
Mike
I appreciate your well-considered post and willingness to think about the issue from multiple angles.
It is certainly a complicated issue, and consumers, who have relatively little financial skin in the game, may seem out of place expecting any particular actions from the vendors who do.
But, there are also some simple truths in all this that can simplify the calibration of your compass, if you will.
First, there are only three possible outcomes for the legal, white-side of this industry:
1- It could die in silence (if the advocates do nothing, or do too little).
2- It could die in a growl, but die just the same (if the advocates try hard but still fail).
3- It could live (but only if the advocates fight with every tooth and nail, because no one is going to give this to us).
Likewise, there are three possible outcomes for the merchants:
1- They could squeeze every possible dollar out of their business before moving on to another venture, accepting premature defeat in this one.
2- They could go out fighting, maybe make less money (or even lose) than they would have had they accepted defeat, but, in the end, go out all the same.
3- They could survive, an outcome only made possible by the same forces that could bring about the 3rd possible outcome for the industry writ-large.
Now, I don't begrudge a man making a dollar. I'm as capitalist-oriented a guy as you're likely to find. I don't even begrudge a man making a last few dollars in a dying industry that he is unwilling or unable to fight for. I don't begrudge him one bit.
But, in the same vein, the only vendors my wallet has any care to open for are the ones that are willing to fight for the 3rd outcome, or at least put in the good fight ahead of the 2nd one.
Individual stance is up to individual prerogative, and I can't say that anyone needs to help fight for our collective long-term access to viable harm reduction, but I can say they don't need any of my dollars or support, either. That much is my prerogative.
....
My ranting against what I see this industry doing wrong comes from my experience in the gun industry, and I see some profound parallels between the two industries.
Both are subject to negative propaganda and punitive regulation. Both are patronized by a group of people who tend to be independent, willing to tinker, and have an almost obsessive appreciation for details. And, most significantly, both are engaged in ensuring the right to personal protection (a right that is constantly under siege), and their patrons confront attacks against that right with righteous indignation.
My dad ran the local gun shop, and I grew up in his gunsmith shop. My entire career as an adult has been spent as a gunsmith with various high-profile gunsmithing firms and firearms manufacturers. My entire life has been steeped in advocacy for a (mostly) righteous industry that is constantly under attack.
I've seen plenty of battles won and lost. I've seen ground lost, recovered, and then threatened again.
The gun industry has a LOT of advantages that the vaping industry does not, as I've detailed before, and I can tell you, from experience, the vape industry is not an industry poised to win the war against it.
Too few are doing too little and too many are openly against it. The voice of opposition is too quiet and is too fractured to carry any collective force, especially against the unified hum of its attackers.
It may not be your right to expect any given vendor to do anything in regards to advocacy, but it is your right to vocally disagree with them...right up until the point where they throw you out.
And, if they do throw you out, and they prove the have no interest in fighting for the survival of this industry of personal-protection, then you haven't exactly made an enemy that's going to survive for very long, have you?
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My
We need every person who cares about the very survival of vaping to be engaged in the fight against the FDA now. We need letters, emails and phone calls to our legislators, testimonials, signatures on petitions, donations to advocacy groups, etc. The more the better.
If we win, we all win--vapers and manufacturers and vendors. If we lose, we all lose.
Oliver, we already have a thread:
Senator Ron Johnson sends letter to FDA Cmsnr Califf asking important questions about deeming ban
Only if this guy is...
Honestly, if all the high-powered celebrities that vape would stand up for the cause...
But I guess they only stand up for stuff that won't hurt their image...
Bunch of...
I don't know. Seems every time they stand up and shoot their political mouths off they hurt their image...in my eyes anyway.
This seems to be picking up steam, if you get a chance go look at the comments in the FDA's twitter feed @FDATobacco
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