Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Lessifer]

While I did RYO for almost 2 years, and felt it was much less polluted than BT Products, I don't remember ever seeing RYO on any of my tobacco packaging. Also this was a Whole Leaf Product.

I'm just thinking 100mg/ml is not intended for direct use and therefor not a finished product.

Well, those are some of the loopholes they're closing with this deeming. Pipe tobacco is now covered. Also, e-liquid flavoring, as a component, is subject to the regulations.

This is of course just my opinion, but I seriously think the only distinction is: For sale to manufacturer, or For sale to consumer. If it's sold to the consumer, it's covered.

 

[crxess]

Well, those are some of the loopholes they're closing with this deeming. Pipe tobacco is now covered. Also, e-liquid flavoring, as a component, is subject to the regulations.

This is of course just my opinion, but I seriously think the only distinction is: For sale to manufacturer, or For sale to consumer. If it's sold to the consumer, it's covered.

So, no low dose nicotine for Bug Spray?

Hazmat Suit Sale ................Soon

 

[Lessifer]

So, no low dose nicotine for Bug Spray?

Hazmat Suit Sale ................Soon

It's obviously not crystal clear, likely intentionally. I just think that believing that they'll leave bulk nic alone is wishful thinking at best. It's not as if the FDA has a track record of doing us favors.

 

[The Ocelot]

Perhaps we should call it an Uninformed study. researchers are behind the ball on this. Gas Station Gear is far from what a Qualified b&M would Recommend or what an Experienced Vaper would suggest to someone ready to take a chance.

The UK Study seemed to be well informed and showed matching success with NRT. Factor in Cost, before STATE and FEDERAL Greed and Vapor Products are a Given.

Those (2) Factors alone, State/Federal Greed, Significantly reduce effective motivational Gains in Successful transition.

Profits over Health!

Dumb don't see the Reduction(over time) in health cost - According to Their estimates of Smoking related Health Care Burden on Government.
Maybe they do and the numbers are being fudged for Cash Flow.

I have to disagree with you about this specific study. The research isn't focused on subjects who have quit cigarettes entirely by using ecigs. It is about why some people are dual users of tobacco cigarettes and ecigs, when they could just be using ecigs. It's a psychological study, not a "How To" guide.

You must keep in mind that we are not "average" ecig users. We do more research, try more products and unquestionably know vaping works. A lot of people don't - we've all met them. Having better gear, adjusting one's nic level, using NETs or WTAs, etc., are often the answers, but not always. I think the findings are informative and could be useful.

[The r]esults [in the abstract] indicated that dual users’ use of cigarettes is influenced by particular activities (e.g., before/after eating), strong craving or need for stimulation (e.g., in response to stress), places/situations (e.g., when cigarette smokers are nearby; outdoors), use of other substances (alcohol, coffee), and unavailability of an e-cigarette when needed.

How many times have you read posts from people who say they can't seem to let go of a cigarette with their morning coffee or when they are very stressed? One of the points the study makes is, "For habitual cigarette smokers wanting to quit tobacco smoking, switching over completely to e-cigarettes may require skills of cognitive-behavioral management."

I've said the same thing to members (albeit, not so articulately), suggesting they try drinking their morning coffee in different room, use a new cup, take a walk first, etc., anything to change the trigger to have a cigarette. The survey of users reporting in what situations they prefer a tobacco cigarette to an ecig makes sense to me.

The article is long. Conclusions and results are noted in the abstract and in more detail at the end.

Contexts of cigarette and e-cigarette use among dual users: a qualitative study - BMC Public Health 2015

ETA: The study was funded by an FDA grant, but that doesn't mean it supports the FDA agenda. Nowhere in the study does it say ecigs are bad for you.

 

[Katya]

That's the Only Reason I'm Fighting all this. For that Poor Smuck out there somewhere, that I would like to see have the Same Chance of Quitting Smoking that I Did.

Ditto.

FWIW

 

[Kent C]

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/RulesRegulationsGuidance/UCM499352.pdf

B. When Are PMTAs Required?

1. Considerations for All Applicants

Section 910 of the FD&C Act requires a marketing order for new tobacco products. At this time, FDA intends to limit enforcement of the requirements of section 910 to finished tobacco products, including components and parts of ENDS products sold or distributed separately for consumer use. FDA does not, at this time, intend to enforce these requirements for components and parts of newly deemed products that are sold or distributed solely for further manufacturing into finished tobacco products, and not sold separately to the consumer. For example, an e-liquid that is sold or distributed for further manufacturing into a finished ENDS product is not itself a finished tobacco product and, at this time, FDA does not intend to enforce against such e-liquids that are sold or distributed without a marketing order. In contrast, an e-liquid sealed in final packaging that is to be sold or distributed to a consumer for use is a finished tobacco product. FDA intends to enforce against such finished e-liquids that are sold or distributed without a marketing order.

 

[crxess]

I have to disagree with you about this specific study. The research isn't focused on subjects who have quit cigarettes entirely by using ecigs. It is about why some people are dual users of tobacco cigarettes and ecigs, when they could just be using ecigs. It's a psychological study, not a "How To" guide.

You must keep in mind that we are not "average" ecig users. We do more research, try more products and unquestionably know vaping works. A lot of people don't - we've all met them. Having better gear, adjusting one's nic level, using NETs or WTAs, etc., are often the answers, but not always. I think the findings are informative and could be useful.

[The r]esults [in the abstract] indicated that dual users’ use of cigarettes is influenced by particular activities (e.g., before/after eating), strong craving or need for stimulation (e.g., in response to stress), places/situations (e.g., when cigarette smokers are nearby; outdoors), use of other substances (alcohol, coffee), and unavailability of an e-cigarette when needed.

How many times have you read posts from people who say they can't seem to let go of a cigarette with their morning coffee or when they are very stressed? One of the points the study makes is, "For habitual cigarette smokers wanting to quit tobacco smoking, switching over completely to e-cigarettes may require skills of cognitive-behavioral management."

I've said the same thing to members (albeit, not so articulately), suggesting they try drinking their morning coffee in different room, use a new cup, take a walk first, etc., anything to change the trigger to have a cigarette. The survey of users reporting in what situations they prefer a tobacco cigarette to an ecig makes sense to me.

The article is long. Conclusions and results are noted in the abstract and in more detail at the end.

Contexts of cigarette and e-cigarette use among dual users: a qualitative study - BMC Public Health 2015

I understand the Study and its implications as well as the Cherry puckers and their distortions of the research.

Unfortunately those studies only have a Negative impact where the FDA is concerned. Mitch Zeller has made it Clear a Smoker, even smoking Far less, is a Smoker<<<<<<<<and that is all he cares to see. Therefor, in his eyes, [our ENDS] offer no solution.

Notice the use Of ALL and ALL..........and now Deeming
FDA All or Nothing - Go Big(TB) or Go Home

On DHHS:
Other Considerations. The Secretary shall consider all other information submitted in connection with a proposed standard, including information concerning the countervailing effects of the tobacco product standard on the health of adolescent tobacco users, adult tobacco users, or nontobacco users, such as the creation of a significant demand for contraband or other tobacco products that do not meet the requirements of this chapter and the significance of such demand.

Must not Care

 

[Katya]

*cough* DIY E-Liquid

And Nicotine Comparisons

A must read.

Never mind. Thanks @Bob Chill

 

[DC2]

I think it is a huge mistake to underestimate the enemy.

What we need to do is make it a huge mistake...
For the enemy to have underestimated us...

I think they have.
And now it's time to drop the hammer.

Legislative branches first, Judicial second.
I feel a bit more confident every day.

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - I do an Absentee Ballot. Have done so for Years.

I just walk up and hand them My Ballot. Then Smile as I walk past the Line of people waiting in line to Vote.

 

[The Ocelot]

And what I'm trying to get to is that when the FDA Deemed e-Cigarettes/e-Liquids to be "Tobacco Products", it gave the FDA the Authority under the TCA to Regulate e-Cigarettes/e-Liquids as "Tobacco Products".

But the FDA's authority to Regulate e-Cigarettes/e-Liquids as a "Tobacco Product" does not, IMO, give the ATF/TTB any Legal Authority to Impose Requirements or Levy Fees/Taxes on e-Cigarettes/e-Liquids.

I didn't bring up the ATF/TTB for the tax aspect. I was initially trying to find what agency had authorization over alcohol. I then found the information on tobacco and that the IRC doesn't have a category for ecigs. Everybody wants money, so I was wondering if an interagency fight might muddy the water.

From what I can figure out (I could be wrong) an amendment to the IRC requires an act of congress, but I don't know if expanding a definition requires an amendment. If it does, wouldn't that open the door for arguing that products not contain tobacco aren't tobacco products?

 

[leftyandsparky]

I have to disagree with you about this specific study. The research isn't focused on subjects who have quit cigarettes entirely by using ecigs. It is about why some people are dual users of tobacco cigarettes and ecigs, when they could just be using ecigs. It's a psychological study, not a "How To" guide.

You must keep in mind that we are not "average" ecig users. We do more research, try more products and unquestionably know vaping works. A lot of people don't - we've all met them. Having better gear, adjusting one's nic level, using NETs or WTAs, etc., are often the answers, but not always. I think the findings are informative and could be useful.

[The r]esults [in the abstract] indicated that dual users’ use of cigarettes is influenced by particular activities (e.g., before/after eating), strong craving or need for stimulation (e.g., in response to stress), places/situations (e.g., when cigarette smokers are nearby; outdoors), use of other substances (alcohol, coffee), and unavailability of an e-cigarette when needed.

How many times have you read posts from people who say they can't seem to let go of a cigarette with their morning coffee or when they are very stressed? One of the points the study makes is, "For habitual cigarette smokers wanting to quit tobacco smoking, switching over completely to e-cigarettes may require skills of cognitive-behavioral management."

I've said the same thing to members (albeit, not so articulately), suggesting they try drinking their morning coffee in different room, use a new cup, take a walk first, etc., anything to change the trigger to have a cigarette. The survey of users reporting in what situations they prefer a tobacco cigarette to an ecig makes sense to me.

The article is long. Conclusions and results are noted in the abstract and in more detail at the end.

Contexts of cigarette and e-cigarette use among dual users: a qualitative study - BMC Public Health 2015

ETA: The study was funded by an FDA grant, but that doesn't mean it supports the FDA agenda. Nowhere in the study does it say ecigs are bad for you.

I had to switch from coffee to hot tea when I started last October.

 

[DC2]

I've got, hopefully, another half century ahead of me and no plans to leave the country. So, to all you old goats fighting for the other guy, THANK YOU!

I'm 50 years old and somewhere between you and the old goats.
I'm just hoping I get off the planet before it self-destructs.

I don't want to be around when ammunition is the primary form of currency.
And water is something you kill your neighbor for.

But I digress...

I like dogs.
Dogs make me happy.
They don't suck.

 

[coldgin96]

Vaping needs to be severed from tobacco.

I agree. I'm relentless in correcting people I'm not smoking, I'm vaping. I never let it go, even when I know they just slipped.
However, as long as the nicotine is being extracted from tobacco, I'm afraid vaping won't be severed from it.

 

[VNeil]

I agree. I'm relentless in correcting people I'm not smoking, I'm vaping. I never let it go, even when I know they just slipped.
However, as long as the nicotine is being extracted from tobacco, I'm afraid vaping won't be severed from it.

Unfortunately I think that as long as "smoke" exits our mouthes and noses many people will consider it smoking. Ya can't fix stupid or ignorant

 

[Myrany]

I am 51. I have my nic level down to 1mg eLiquid. The small supply I have will last me until I am 90 (by then I probably won't care if I run out). I am unfortunately one of those people who cannot go to 0 nic. I did it for a year. I had very real problems with anxiety and depression as a result. My doc told me to go back on the nic but just find the lowest dose I could while still keeping the nasty emotional stuff at bay. The low dose nic is far safer for me personally than the side effects of anxiety/depression meds (I had some doozys for side effects with those).

I have about half a dozen decent Mechs and about 25 RDAs in my stash. I have 4 decent regulated mods with rebuildable tanks. Spare parts for everything.

I am not worried about me. I will manage. I do worry about those who currently vape but do not know what is about to hit and those that won't get a chance to quit the cigs with vaping.

That is what is really criminal in all this. The FDA basically handed a death sentence to millions of people with this deeming.

 

[crxess]

Getting the message out hasn't been easy.
Something that may help - repost of interview broadcast

 

[Katya]

Us old goats saw this country when it was a hell of a lot better than what it is now. Sadly, it is our generation who is killing it. It's the "Me" generation now. Ask not what you can do for your country, but what can your country do for you".

Oh, the irony. The hippies and the nonconformists and the idealists have grown up...

 

[DC2]

Weren't several people replaced on the FSPTCA for "conflicts of interest"?........or am I confused.....again.

Several people were replaced on TPSAC for conflicts of interest.

Also, who thought it was a good idea for Congress to grant authority to an agency, and then allow that agency the power to expand its own authority?

I'd say the devil, but I really don't know for sure.

I agree. I'm relentless in correcting people I'm not smoking, I'm vaping. I never let it go, even when I know they just slipped.

I really liked this part of your post a lot.

However, as long as the nicotine is being extracted from tobacco, I'm afraid vaping won't be severed from it.

This part not so much.

When cheap and healthier choices to nicotine are removed from public access...
Big Pharma will start rolling out their nicotine-based drugs...

And if I want to avoid Alzheimers or Parkinsons, I'll have to pay for the privilege.

At this time, nicotine WILL be severed from tobacco...
By the same people doing their level best to screw us now...

 

[crxess]

The low dose nic is far safer for me personally than the side effects of anxiety/depression meds (I had some doozys for side effects with those).

The Low dose effects are much safer for my family and friends. I often have to Chain Vape around ijjits to protect them.