Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[zoiDman]

View attachment 593255 View attachment 593257 This is what these regs have done to my local B&M and it is really hurting their bottom line because service was a big part of what they offer. So sad

It is Sad.

But I was at least Encouraged that these signs had an address to www.august8th.org

 

[YoursTruli]

I have seen signs like this and a few very dramatic videos of shops not being ale to help customers now.
Maybe I am misunderstanding something but I keep seeing/hearing those supposedly in the know saying once the device or whatever is sold vape shops can help people with them. ?
So, if someone were to buy the gear first or come into a shop with their gear they can put it together, change their coil or help trouble shoot. If this is so I am beginning to wonder if some are not making things worse than they already are and a lot tougher on themselves and customers then necessary. No free samples, charge a (nominal) flat fee for unlimited testing.
Don't get me wrong things are changing drastically and not for the better but I am not sure of the going overboard publicly on what vendors (supposedly) can not do is helping our case, I feel it's like helping the closed systems case more. As in "see people do not know how to use this stuff lets make it stupid simple, closed system only devices any gas station or convenience store can sell".

 

[Lessifer]

I have seen signs like this and a few very dramatic videos of shops not being ale to help customers now.
Maybe I am misunderstanding something but I keep seeing/hearing those supposedly in the know saying once the device or whatever is sold vape shops can help people with them. ?
So, if someone were to buy the gear first or come into a shop with their gear they can put it together, change their coil or help trouble shoot. If this is so I am beginning to wonder if some are not making things worse than they already are and a lot tougher on themselves and customers then necessary. No free samples, charge a (nominal) flat fee for unlimited testing.
Don't get me wrong things are changing drastically and not for the better but I am not sure of the going overboard publicly on what vendors (supposedly) can not do is helping our case, I feel it's like helping the closed systems case more. As in "see people do not know how to use this stuff lets make it stupid simple, closed system only devices any gas station or convenience store can sell".

What retailers vs manufacturers can/can't do is unclear, and the FDA has not been good about clarifying.

I asked them directly about charging for samples. After a month they replied quoting the regs, and saying that free samples are not allowed. That wasn't what I asked, and they did not clarify the specific points that I did ask.

As for helping customers, one interpretation is if you are not adding, removing, or otherwise modifying the product, it's okay. What exactly does that mean though, if you fix a problem, are you not modifying it? Perhaps if the customer just put it together improperly you could assemble it properly, but, is that actually allowed? Some might be going overboard but I honestly can't fault them for assuming the strictest interpretation is what will be enforced.

 

[zoiDman]

 

[Lessifer]

So, which vendor wants to volunteer to be the face of the vaping rights movement, and lose their business in the process? Not saying it wouldn't be awesome, I can imagine the news story of a shop being shut down because the owner filled a tank for a vet amputee, but if I were a shop owner I wouldn't be eager to be that example.

 

[zoiDman]

So, which vendor wants to volunteer to be the face of the vaping rights movement, and lose their business in the process? Not saying it wouldn't be awesome, I can imagine the news story of a shop being shut down because the owner filled a tank for a vet amputee, but if I were a shop owner I wouldn't be eager to be that example.

I don't seem to recall that the Penalty for such a FDA Violation was Losing your Business? I thought I read somewhere that it was like a $1,500 Fine for a 1st Offense?

It would be Nice to Challenge the FDA in Court if the FDA wanted to Fine Me for showing someone How to Safely Use a Product that I sell.

 

[Lessifer]

I don't seem to recall that the Penalty for such a FDA Violation was Losing your Business? I thought I read somewhere that it was like a $1,500 Fine for a 1st Offense?

It would be Nice to Challenge the FDA in Court if the FDA wanted to Fine Me for showing someone How to Safely Use a Product that I sell.

I'm not sure what the fine is for adulterating a product. Would it just be a single fine? If it's an issue with you modifying a product and not selling, maybe they wouldn't seize inventory, but how would they ensure you don't continue to adulterate product? If you take it to court, how much would that cost?

Again, I'm not saying I wouldn't love to see it happen, but like Rosa Parks, it should not be something entered into lightly. She had the support of the NAACP, and it was a planned act of defiance and she was fully aware of the consequences.

 

[zoiDman]

I'm not sure what the fine is for adulterating a product. Would it just be a single fine? If it's an issue with you modifying a product and not selling, maybe they wouldn't seize inventory, but how would they ensure you don't continue to adulterate product? If you take it to court, how much would that cost?

Again, I'm not saying I wouldn't love to see it happen, but like Rosa Parks, it should not be something entered into lightly. She had the support of the NAACP, and it was a planned act of defiance and she was fully aware of the consequences.

The FDA might not even Issue a Fine. They could just Issue a Letter saying that you need to Stop Showing Customers how to Properly Use the Products they are Purchasing.

Man... Sometimes I have to Step Back and wonder How Did it Get This Bad? Retailers in Fear of Showing Someone How to Change a Coil Head in an RTA?

What does Any of this have to do with Public Health anymore?

 

[seminolewind]

I think we should at least be shown the respect of decisive people being vetted as unbiased.

 

[seminolewind]

Oliver/SmokeyJoe. why the name change?

 

[Lessifer]

The FDA might not even Issue a Fine. They could just Issue a Letter saying that you need to Stop Showing Customers how to Properly Use the Products they are Purchasing.

Man... Sometimes I have to Step Back and wonder How Did it Get This Bad? Retailers in Fear of Showing Someone How to Change a Coil Head in an RTA?

What does Any of this have to do with Public Health anymore?

I agree, it's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Bea-FL]

So, which vendor wants to volunteer to be the face of the vaping rights movement, and lose their business in the process? Not saying it wouldn't be awesome, I can imagine the news story of a shop being shut down because the owner filled a tank for a vet amputee, but if I were a shop owner I wouldn't be eager to be that example.

The shop manager of my B&M I posted earlier told me that they have a good customer who is elderly and has very arthritic hands. About once a week she's been coming in and the staff fills several tanks for her that she can screw on her mods. When she needed new coils they screwed those in for her too. Now they cant do that for her anymore.

I reminded her that they have some time before all this is absolutely necessary but she said they are so scared to take any chances that the FDA might start sending mystery shoppers around. As it is they are trying really hard to stay open - they have about a dozen part time employees and they have to stop selling their home made juice which is their most constant money maker and out-source it. No way they can afford PMTAs.

 

[Lessifer]

The shop manager of my B&M I posted earlier told me that they have a good customer who is elderly and has very arthritic hands. About once a week she's been coming in and the staff fills several tanks for her that she can screw on her mods. When she needed new coils they screwed those in for her too. Now they cant do that for her anymore.

I reminded her that they have some time before all this is absolutely necessary but she said they are so scared to take any chances that the FDA might start sending mystery shoppers around. As it is they are trying really hard to stay open - they have about a dozen part time employees and they have to stop selling their home made juice which is their most constant money maker and out-source it. No way they can afford PMTAs.

Hopefully they'll find an alternative. I know that there are vapers who have volunteered their time to hang out in shops in order to assist other customers with tasks that the shops no longer feel legally able to perform. Hopefully the lawsuits and/or legislative strategies will bring some relief.

Maybe a shop owner, with support(legal and financial) of an organization like SFATA, will be vaping's Rosa Parks. Maybe that would bring some much needed publicity to the absurdness that is the deeming regulations.

 

[bigdancehawk]

So, which vendor wants to volunteer to be the face of the vaping rights movement, and lose their business in the process? Not saying it wouldn't be awesome, I can imagine the news story of a shop being shut down because the owner filled a tank for a vet amputee, but if I were a shop owner I wouldn't be eager to be that example.

They're not going to shut anybody down or seize inventory just because a store fills a tank or something equally trivial. Worse case scenario would be an initial warning letter and then you could decide whether to fight or capitulate. If you don't capitulate, then fines would start out small and escalate.

Personally, I'd fight it and I think I could get considerable financial help from others in the industry. The chances of winning such a case would be excellent, IMO.

 

[zoiDman]

The shop manager of my B&M I posted earlier told me that they have a good customer who is elderly and has very arthritic hands. About once a week she's been coming in and the staff fills several tanks for her that she can screw on her mods. When she needed new coils they screwed those in for her too. Now they cant do that for her anymore.

...

If someone showed me this, I would be Embarrassed to say that I worked at for FDA. Even if I was just a Switchboard Operator. Or someone who Vacuumed the floors at Night.

 

[Bea-FL]

They're not going to shut anybody down or seize inventory just because a store fills a tank or something equally trivial. Worse case scenario would be an initial warning letter and then you could decide whether to fight or capitulate. If you don't capitulate, then fines would start out small and escalate.

Personally, I'd fight it and I think I could get considerable financial help from others in the industry. The chances of winning such a case would be excellent, IMO.

Maybe you have never been in a position of every penny counting. I have and therefore I get it.

You maybe right. But when you are barely hanging on because you opened your shop less than a year ago and you have inventory and rent and employee compensations, a fine, however small, could be the last drop, and hiring a lawyer to fight the government totally undoable. Have you priced lawyers lately? They simply cannot chance it. I don't blame them for being super cautious.

Several of us regulars will be helping customers such as that lady.

 

[Lessifer]

They're not going to shut anybody down or seize inventory just because a store fills a tank or something equally trivial. Worse case scenario would be an initial warning letter and then you could decide whether to fight or capitulate. If you don't capitulate, then fines would start out small and escalate.

Personally, I'd fight it and I think I could get considerable financial help from others in the industry. The chances of winning such a case would be excellent, IMO.

I want to believe that's true. However, I'm not aware of any previous instances of someone being caught actively manufacturing adulterated products, which is what I believe it would be considered. Where does it outline the penalties for that?

 

[zoiDman]

Maybe you have never been in a position of every penny counting. I have and therefore I get it.

You maybe right. But when you are barely hanging on because you opened your shop less than a year ago and you have inventory and rent and employee compensations, a fine, however small, could be the last drop, and hiring a lawyer to fight the government totally undoable. Have you priced lawyers lately? They simply cannot chance it. I don't blame them for being super cautious.

Several of us regulars will be helping customers such as that lady.

I Don't think Anyone is Faulting the Owner of that B&M. Or Expecting this B&M to lead with their Nose when it comes to Something like this.

It's Just Ridiculous that thru the Unclear Actions of a "Public Health" Agency in America that we are Even Having this Conversation.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Maybe you have never been in a position of every penny counting. I have and therefore I get it.

You maybe right. But when you are barely hanging on because you opened your shop less than a year ago and you have inventory and rent and employee compensations, a fine, however small, could be the last drop, and hiring a lawyer to fight the government totally undoable. Have you priced lawyers lately? They simply cannot chance it. I don't blame them for being super cautious.

Several of us regulars will be helping customers such as that lady.

Ha! I will spare you a grim accounting of my penurious past.
To repeat, the first enforcement step is a warning letter. No fine. I doubt they would even bother to issue a warning letter for many of the things being discussed in this thread. The situation is bad enough without concocting improbable scenarios.

 

[bigdancehawk]

I want to believe that's true. However, I'm not aware of any previous instances of someone being caught actively manufacturing adulterated products, which is what I believe it would be considered. Where does it outline the penalties for that?

I thought we were talking about a store employee filling a customer's tank atomizer with e-juice. But now I'm uncertain what you're referring to.