Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[bnrkwest]

Basically we have the FDA attacking things that are present in everyday life, nictotine, rechargeable batteries, cotton, wire as a heating element, PG, VG, flavorings. Put it together you have a tobacco product, not put together you have food or gum with flavors, a cell phone or flashlight, a cotton ball, a toaster. Pretty bizarre ! LOL

 

[Eskie]

The problem I am trying to fix is that many vapers here, when they became vapers, decided that it was a special club and that it was okay to put other forms of NRT down, and those who use it. (Seen way too many posts bashing cig-a-likes, for instance).

My message is that I don't care what people use, if it works for them. Maybe that is why some people look on vapers negatively....... "messianic" complexes, and over-evangelizing, are always annoying. regardless of what the "belief" is. When somebody tells you they have all the answers, the natural inclination is to walk away.

I do agree that many vapers are somewhat dismissive of NRT because in all likelihood they tried it and it didn't work. It also is known in clinical studies to have a fairly low long term success rate. All vapers who are no longer smoking will obviously view vaping as a wonderful tool to get off cigarettes. And it is. The problem, IMO, is that looking at your own personal experience, or the experience of others on forums such as this, remains anecdotal. Until such time as solid, properly structured testing results are produced, that's about the best that can be said. I do believe over the next years we will see such studies finally published, and I BELIEVE they will bear out all this anecdotal experience.

I fully agree that whatever works to get you to stop smoking, whether NRT, medications, hypnosis, acupuncture, plain old cold turkey, or vaping (yes, I tried them all) are all important tools to have available. There probably is no one method that will work for everyone, so the more the merrier. Vaping finally worked for me, but had any of the other methods worked, I would have been just as happy.

At any rate, we still don't know what will happen by Fall of 2018. I don't assume everything will be terrible, but then again, I am cautiously optimistic.

And now I will respectfully disagree, but that's likely just the pessimist in me.

What does deeply concern me is there may very well be a great deal of published data in the future documenting smoking cessation rates and mid term safety (long term safety to be inferred). While that will be good news, I'm afraid the industry will be so beaten down by the time that data is released that between the current deeming regulations and excessive state taxation that it simply will no longer be a tool readily available to the public, even in a closed system, if the cost is prohibitive due to taxation and limited competition in the marketplace.

 

[bnrkwest]

The FDA other arguement is it looks like smoking, well maybe looks like is a pretty flimsy arguement because as we all did as kids in cold weather is breath in cold air and blow out vaper that looks like smoking, not sure how vaper = smoking as it is not related. Vaper does not = smoke. The more I read their replies the more dense they sound. Do they think we are idiots? I guess the answer to that is yes they do!

 

[bnrkwest]

So many vapers did try other forms of quiting, I went to quit smoking classes, worked for awhile but not for long. I say whatever works use it.

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

...because as we all did as kids in cold weather is breath in cold air and blow out vaper that looks like smoking, not sure how vaper = smoking as it is not related.

If the government and its agencies could control "breathing" they certainly would.

But to take your analogy to a more realistic level... I bet if school kids standing out in the cold were seen mimicking the hand motion of a vaping device while exhaling that warm air... well, you can bet a teacher/adult would stop them with a scowl and stern lecture. And god help the little urchin if he's using the other hand to mimic a firearm at the same time.

 

[Semiretired]

Do they think we are idiots? I guess the answer to that is yes they do!

No they don't think we are, but they are hoping the ones making the final decisions are...

 

[bnrkwest]

If the government and its agencies could control "breathing" they certainly would.

But to take your analogy to a more realistic level... I bet if school kids standing out in the cold were seen mimicking the hand motion of a vaping device while exhaling that warm air... well, you can bet a teacher/adult would stop them with a scowl and stern lecture. And god help the little urchin if he's using the other hand to mimic a firearm at the same time.

Yep we even had candy cigarettes to use as as a prop, LOL, we could also buy cigs for adults at $.35 a pack years ago. We didn't have seat belts, no helmets, no air bags, we could ride on a tail gate in a truck and low and behold we survived without the FDA. The good ole days! LOL

 

[Semiretired]

So many vapers did try other forms of quiting, I went to quit smoking classes, worked for awhile but not for long. I say whatever works use it.

I tried I believe ever option including hypnosis and cold turkey many times over. On one occasion my wife went to the store and bought me a pack - she couldn't take it anymore. Now she is just happy to not be kissing an ashtray anymore.

She wants me to give up vaping also - that is something that only time will tell. But I want to do it on my terms and not by a bureaucracy forcing me into it...

 

[seminolewind]

I don't care if other people quit or use another method. I had my horse at a place for 4 years where 5 people chain smoked in a 900sq ft house . If they ask questions about my vaping, I answer them. I can also say that some tried vaping and it didn't help and it just wasn't good enough. So I usually see what they used and recommend devices that work and are variable. Most of they tried was garbage most times. I'm not pushy. They bring it up.

But still I have never met a person who did not smoke prior to a vapor device. To end up with a better experience, that's what these vapor shops are great for. Someone who understands, is knowledgeable, and most times offer a sample.

Those 5 chain smokers still chain smoke. One is an older woman who has been in the hospital many many times for lung infections and aspergillosis (fungal). She barely has one lung working. Nothing will help her and she will continue to smoke all the way to the coffin. Her last hospital stay was 4 months.

I can empathize with smokers. I was one. I understand how it is. I am just super po'd that the gov and other groups say they want smokers to quit but really don't. They make a lot of money off smokers. So they are kept addicts because of their money and making someone rich.

 

[seminolewind]

People have varying degrees of addiction. From just stopping to never stopping. And any method in between. We have been among those that would never quit or other ways never worked and finally something comes along that does work for many of us die hards and fear that it will be taken away. Many smoking cessation methods have a lot of non smokers involved in it's creation. Ours was created by a smoker.

 

[Semiretired]

I can empathize with smokers. I was one. I understand how it is. I am just super po'd that the gov and other groups say they want smokers to quit but really don't. They make a lot of money off smokers. So they are kept addicts because of their money and making someone rich.

I would so much like to see what they are going to do if when they make vaping nonexistent or cost prohibitve that millions quit vaping and don't go back to smoking. Where are they going to turn next. If they took this effort in the right way then it could of been a win win situation.

 

[Semiretired]

But still I have never met a person who did not smoke prior to a vapor device.

There have been a couple of newbies that recently joined and have never smoked - both were curious.

 

[WillyZee]

If it looks like smoking ... it taxes like smoking.

Thank you
The FDA


Sent via iPhone

 

[Buckeyevapen]

There have been a couple of newbies that recently joined and have never smoked - both were curious.

I've seen that too. One thing I appreciated and what I wish the general public was witness to was this communities response was: why? If you don't smoke don't use nic! In other words as a group we encourage use to help quit smoking and discourage use of non smokers. And the FDA didn't have to tell us to do so.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with using nic, but as a general rule I have appreciated "our" response to these folks.

 

[beckah54]

Yep we even had candy cigarettes to use as as a prop, LOL, we could also buy cigs for adults at $.35 a pack years ago. We didn't have seat belts, no helmets, no air bags, we could ride on a tail gate in a truck and low and behold we survived without the FDA. The good ole days! LOL

Wish I could like this post a thousand times. lol

 

[Lessifer]

Most of their discussion doesn't even discuss sampling in vapeshops. They are more likely talking about free handouts at vape shows, conventions and festivals, as this analogy makes clear :

Moreover, it is common sense that in crowded public spaces like stadiums and concert halls, where employees distributing samples (often young adults themselves) face “a dozen or more outstretched arms waiting (or grabbing) for samples,” minors can easily access the products by taking a sample themselves, “recruit[ing] an adult to obtain the sample on their behalf,” or by picking up a sample someone else has discarded. Inst. Med. Rpt. (1994) at 217 (AR 18,580). Thus, the free sample ban furthers the government’s interests by eliminating a
tried-and-true means by which minors have accessed harmful and addictive products.

The better analogy for sampling in vapeshops, is what the FDA themselves hinted at ( and which they say the R2B/Nicopure brief did not even respond to ):

Finally, Plaintiffs have no response to the FDA’s justified conclusion that the careful limitations on the amount of smokeless tobacco permitted for free samples at qualified adult-only facilities could not feasibly be applied to e-cigarettes. See 81 Fed. Reg. at 29,003. Thus, as the Sixth Circuit held, banning free samples “embodies a narrow fit between the harm articulated and the restriction employed.” Discount Tobacco, 674 F.3d at 541.

Why the " careful limitations ... could not feasibly be applied to e-cigarettes " is not made clear. I can't see any reason myself.

I'm not caught up yet, but the "careful limitations" they're referring to are:

(iii) For purposes of paragraph (d) of this section, the term "qualified adult-only facility" means a facility or restricted area that:

(A) Requires each person present to provide to a law enforcement officer (whether on or off duty) or to a security guard licensed by a governmental entity government-issued identification showing a photograph and at least the minimum age established by applicable law for the purchase of smokeless tobacco;

(B) Does not sell, serve, or distribute alcohol;

(C) Is not located adjacent to or immediately across from (in any direction) a space that is used primarily for youth-oriented marketing, promotional, or other activities;

(D) Is a temporary structure constructed, designated, and operated as a distinct enclosed area for the purpose of distributing free samples of smokeless tobacco in accordance with this paragraph (d)(2) of this section;

(E) Is enclosed by a barrier that:

(1 ) Is constructed of, or covered with, an opaque material (except for entrances and exits);

(2 ) Extends from no more than 12 inches above the ground or floor (which area at the bottom of the barrier must be covered with material that restricts visibility but may allow airflow) to at least 8 feet above the ground or floor (or to the ceiling); and

(3 ) Prevents persons outside the qualified adult-only facility from seeing into the qualified adult-only facility, unless they make unreasonable efforts to do so; and

(F) Does not display on its exterior:

(1 ) Any tobacco product advertising;

(2 ) A brand name other than in conjunction with words for an area or enclosure to identify an adult-only facility; or

(3 ) Any combination of words that would imply to a reasonable observer that the manufacturer, distributor, or retailer has a sponsorship that would violate 1140.34(c).

(iv) Distribution of samples of smokeless tobacco under paragraph (d)(2) of this section permitted to be taken out of the qualified adult-only facility shall be limited to one package per adult consumer containing no more than 0.53 ounces (15 grams) of smokeless tobacco. If such package of smokeless tobacco contains individual portions of smokeless tobacco, the individual portions of smokeless tobacco shall not exceed eight individual portions, and the collective weight of such individual portions shall not exceed 0.53 ounces (15 grams). Any manufacturer, distributor, or retailer who distributes or causes to be distributed free samples also shall take reasonable steps to ensure that the amounts in this paragraph (d)(2)(iv) are limited to one such package per adult consumer per day.

So, no, it's not really a good analogy to taste testing in a vape shop. The FDA, in the regulations and every response that I've seen(especially to questions I specifically posed to them) does not even bother to address taste testing in a shop. Their idea of "samples" is products distributed for free.

I suppose they could come up with equally ridiculous rules for distributing vape samples at events, but that's not what we're all talking about.

 

[seminolewind]

The cards stacked against vaping and vapors from the start
The most unfortunate things are all the things that are similar to smoking
.The name "electronic cigarette"
Nicotine
created by smokers
looks like smoking
Kids get a kick out of making big clouds
stigma of cigarettes and smoking
lack of valid education
overwhelming false "education" and lies
being deemed and categorized a tobacco product
Corrupt government
FDA and BT mutually rewarding relationship
Government that makes decisions without knowing anything about vaping except for heresay
and internet hysterics
Government who is allowed to lie and get away with it (ahem, including email stories)
Government who confiscated a shipment of e-juice from China illegally and lost the case (2009/2010).
Claims of formaldehyde and antifreeze that spread like wild fire
FDA claiming that there's no proof that vaping is a smoking cessation method.

I'm sure there's more. What do we have aside from the truth?

 

[snork]

It certainly hasn't helped that vapers themselves do a lot of the disapproving finger pointing and hypochondriacal hand-wringing that invites such measures.

Please explain and elaborate on this statement.

For more than five years now I've had time to contemplate my little clouds. What are they? They are no more than visual representations of my breath. Whatever substances contained within are so diffuse, so ethereal in the sea of particulate matter around me that they truly are insignificant. My clouds do not scare or even concern me in the least, therefore I believe.

I believe, I *know*, that second hand vape is harmless. There is absolutely no "we just don't know" within me.

When I see threads on ECF in which some participants claim that cloud chasing, vaping in public, or vaping outside the laws are to blame for our predicament and in the next breath whine about the evil FDA, politicians, ANTZ and ignorant public, I can only think of the outright hypocrasy it takes to write things like that. Sure, you can vape, but only how and where and for what reasons they approve. If you vape in WalMart, blow a cloud bigger than one cubic foot, vape for fun or around a cat you must be Satan.

There can be no united front to fight our opressors when a significant portion of our ranks agrees, thinks just like THEM. Regardless of the fact that they may have taken up vaping and given up smoking they don't BELIEVE. They are ashamed, they are frightened. It boggles my mind that we have vapers like that when the evidence is right in front of their faces in the form of a cloud. It's just..a little..cloud.

This may be troubling to some but I believe one of the best examples of how to behave in the circumstances we face is in the LGBT(*** the acronym seems to grow longer daily)) rights movement. It is one of the most admirable and effective things I've ever witnessed. This segment of our society has gone from being closeted, ridiculed, misunderstood, feared and legislated to basically accepted, even celebrated in record time (of course there are significant exceptions, it's an ongoing battle). How did they do this? They proudly united under one banner which reads "We're here, we're queer and we're in your face." Proudly is the operative word.

Since that's the second longest thing I've ever written on ecf I'll stop now and declare tl;dr because I could ramble on and on and on and on...

 

[bnrkwest]

So we need our own banner??

 

[snork]

So we need our own banner??
View attachment 598627

Works for me.