Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Kent C]

I can Remember a Time when a Filibuster was Rarely used.

Well, the 60 votes is basically the substitute for the filibuster now. They rarely stand for hours and hours these days. Still it's still referred to as a filibuster or cloture vote.

 

[Eskie]

While I understand that your post on the Minion clearo was the start, the main 'children' problem is with flavors to where no flavors may be the gov't solution. That's going to leave the 'DIY challenged' (or people that don't know DIY is even an option), with a problem - basically staying with or returning to cigarettes. Frankly, people here who have stocked up and/or DIY are not going to have any problems in the future wrt vaping depending how 'deep' they went. So 'we've' already 'won' that war. Compromise and appeasement will only lose the next war and those after that. Again, once you've 'allowed' even a teaspoon of the cake, the opposition knows what it can do.

And it's one thing to poke an actual bear and quite another to challenge a human capable (but not always using) of rational thought.

The statement from the FDA on the matter is quite nuanced:

• FDA intends to issue an Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (ANPRM) to seek public comment on the role that flavors in tobacco products—including menthol—play in attracting youth, as well as the role they may play in helping some smokers switch to potentially less harmful forms of nicotine delivery.

Note they're referring to flavoring in tobacco, particularly menthol. They then go on to state that flavorings may be of some importance to smokers who choose to use a less harmful form of delivery such as vaping. So flavoring bans on vape juice might not be a slam dunk for the save the children crowd. Labeling standards, well they might get that.

 

[Kent C]

"They" (applies to a diverse group that expects PC) have been slowly eroding away the meaning of tolerance. To me tolerance means I am not going to cause physical harm if someone has a difference of opinion from me, but I retain the right to speak up against it. Now "they" expect me to change my position and agree with "them".

Those who say they want 'tolerance' and 'compromise' are the ones less likely to exercise either. :- )

 

[mikepetro]

While I understand that your post on the Minion clearo was the start, the main 'children' problem is with flavors to where no flavors may be the gov't solution. That's going to leave the 'DIY challenged' (or people that don't know DIY is even an option), with a problem - basically staying with or returning to cigarettes. Frankly, people here who have stocked up and/or DIY are not going to have any problems in the future wrt vaping depending how 'deep' they went. So 'we've' already 'won' that war. Compromise and appeasement will only lose the next war and those after that. Again, once you've 'allowed' even a teaspoon of the cake, the opposition knows what it can do.

And it's one thing to poke an actual bear and quite another to challenge a human capable (but not always using) of rational thought.

My whole point is why poke the bear with cartoon attys while we are fighting the flavor battles, among others. It weakens our position.

I think the flavor issue can be won. Science will (should be able to) prove flavors as a motivating factor to migrate people from tobacco to vape. Which would be in line with the latest goals stated last week.

It will take a different marketing approach though. You cant have Spongebob on the label, but pineapple/banana with pictures of the actual fruit would be a lot less threatening. Loose the fufu marketing and just offer straight up flavors.

 

[Kent C]

The statement from the FDA on the matter is quite nuanced:

• FDA intends to issue an Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (ANPRM) to seek public comment on the role that flavors in tobacco products—including menthol—play in attracting youth, as well as the role they may play in helping some smokers switch to potentially less harmful forms of nicotine delivery.

Note they're referring to flavoring in tobacco, particularly menthol. They then go on to state that flavorings may be of some importance to smokers who choose to use a less harmful form of delivery such as vaping. So flavoring bans on vape juice might not be a slam dunk for the save the children crowd. Labeling standards, well they might get that.

Pretty sure this is from the Gottlieb statement that was posted and I quoted recently, so it isn't any 'long standing policy' and the fact that people/vapers have not fallen on their knees, but have written comments to the FDA and voiced their opinions at various meetings, is likely why this has been brought up by someone not of the same mind as others in the past or particularly Mitch Zeller.

The whole 'menthol discussion' is another thing entirely and would likely go immediately to the outside, or just deleted. One side is that it 'targets' and the other is that it would purposely deprive.

 

[Kent C]

My whole point is why poke the bear with cartoon attys while we are fighting the flavor battles, among others. It weakens our position.

I think the flavor issue can be won. Science will (should be able to) prove flavors as a motivating factor to migrate people from tobacco to vape. Which would be in line with the latest goals stated last week.

It will take a different marketing approach though. You cant have Spongebob on the label, but pineapple/banana with pictures of the actual fruit would be a lot less threatening. Loose the fufu marketing and just offer straight up flavors.

I won't 'agree to disagree', just disagree with no interest in continuing the discussion. I've said in the above quotes what my view is. Others can agree or disagree - another view of allowing people freedom, which underpins those views.

 

[zoiDman]

There is also the possibility that the PMTA process will be simplified and relatively easy (big on the relatively) which would make the predicate date less important. Assuming the rules don't change again in the middle of the game. The fact that Gottlieb spoke about the need for innovation in the industry suggests that freezing hardware may not be a top priority. Besides, given how quickly new stuff is coming out, most of what's "new" today won't be by then and why spin your wheels on a product that may very well be discontinued in 6 months when the "new and improved" whatever is released next.

My takeaway with the new position is smoking is bad, harm reduction is something to be taken seriously, and let's keep the save the children crowd happy with public hearings over labeling and whatnot that might make it attractive to underage users. BTW, does anyone really think a 16 year old is going to buy vape gear and juice with Barney on the label expecting to look cool and become popular?

I am Optimistic about the Direction the FDA says they want to go. But I am also Cautious because Talk is Cheap in Washington. And is sometimes done for Short-Term Political gain.

Getting Congress to move the Predicate Date is a Long Solution to a Huge Problem for current and future Vapers.

If the FDA can make good on some of what it say's it wants to do, that would be Great. And if this can be a Beginning of Rational Thinking when it comes to THR, that would be Fantastic.

But if it All Fizzles, I would like to have a Moved Predicate Date as my Hole Card.

 

[Eskie]

I am Optimistic about the Direction the FDA says they want to go. But I am also Cautious because Talk is Cheap in Washington. And is sometimes done for Short-Term Political gain.

Getting Congress to move the Predicate Date is a Long Solution to a Huge Problem for current and future Vapers.

If the FDA can make good on some of what it say's it wants to do, that would be Great. And if this can be a Beginning of Rational Thinking when it comes to THR, that would be Fantastic.

But if it All Fizzles, I would like to have a Moved Predicate Date as my Hole Card.

I agree in principle, but as it's almost a year since the first parts became active, a lot of the hardware sold pre-8/16 isn't even still available, with new products supplanting them (yes to drive sales, but that's how this market works). So do you submit a PMTA on last year's hardware you don't even make anymore? Now if lot's of hardware falls under an SE after the initial PMTA process provides a clear (fat chance) guide to what you can and cannot build and sell, then OK. But think of all the crap gear released in just the last year. how do you handle that, even with a predicate change.

If we really want legislative protection, something like Hunter's bill would make more sense.

 

[zoiDman]

I agree in principle, but as it's almost a year since the first parts became active, a lot of the hardware sold pre-8/16 isn't even still available, with new products supplanting them (yes to drive sales, but that's how this market works). So do you submit a PMTA on last year's hardware you don't even make anymore? Now if lot's of hardware falls under an SE after the initial PMTA process provides a clear (fat chance) guide to what you can and cannot build and sell, then OK. But think of all the crap gear released in just the last year. how do you handle that, even with a predicate change.

If we really want legislative protection, something like Hunter's bill would make more sense.

An August 2016 predicate Date would Grandfather a Lot of Hardware/e-Liquids. Some might Argue enough to guarantee a Smoker a High Chance of Quitting. And would also set a Realistic Mark for SE.

 

[Eskie]

An August 2016 predicate Date would Grandfather a Lot of Hardware/e-Liquids. Some might Argue enough to guarantee a Smoker a High Chance of Quitting. And would also set a Realistic Mark for SE.

That's all I can think of as well is helping open a path for SE. E-liquids light benefit the most.

 

[DavidOck]

The statement from the FDA on the matter is quite nuanced:

• FDA intends to issue an Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (ANPRM) to seek public comment on the role that flavors in tobacco products—including menthol—play in attracting youth, as well as the role they may play in helping some smokers switch to potentially less harmful forms of nicotine delivery.

Note they're referring to flavoring in tobacco, particularly menthol. They then go on to state that flavorings may be of some importance to smokers who choose to use a less harmful form of delivery such as vaping. So flavoring bans on vape juice might not be a slam dunk for the save the children crowd. Labeling standards, well they might get that.

Uh, keep in mind that they have deemed ejuice a tobacco product... I don't think that clause from their statement is going to get us off the hook...

 

[coldgin96]

All I know is, I want to be able to vape any flavor in any open system I choose. If that means not being able to have a picture of Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig or Daffy ing Duck on the label, so be it.

 

[Bronze]

Same arguments we always have here. What is right and what is realistic?

 

[mikepetro]

Same arguments we always have here. What is right and what is realistic?

Tactical versus idealistic.

It is a shame it has come down to that.

 

[Bronze]

Tactical versus idealistic.

It is a shame it has come down to that.

Sure is.

 

[Eskie]

Uh, keep in mind that they have deemed ejuice a tobacco product... I don't think that clause from their statement is going to get us off the hook...

Yes, vaping is a tobacco product, which is why this is occurring. However, vaping now falls in the "less harmful nicotine delivery system" category. I believe that part of the quote that provides me with some hope is

"as well as the role they may play in helping some smokers switch to potentially less harmful forms of nicotine delivery."

Gottlieb made combustible tobacco the demon in this, with vaping representing harm reduction, which for us is a big step up over the FDA's prior interpretation of things. Hopefully.

 

[stols001]

Sometimes the idealistic is the enemy of the good.

Sometimes, tactical is the way to go. To give an example I took my (then) 10 yr old to play laser tag. I was informed by my kiddo that I could *never* beat him. I headed straight for the enemy base (which was unguarded, LOL) and killed it each time I could. While it was "resetting" I headed out and picked off little kids in their laser tag suits from above, then went back to shoot the base.

I was the winner by 10k points, and no I have no shame about this, I didn't hand out participation trophies, LOL.

BUT, my point is experience, forethought, and follow through are all skills that I had in that situation allowed me to make the right tactical moves, leading to my dominance in that arena.... The kids were all busy shooting each other.

Why do I mention this analogy? Well, we need to find out as much as we can and attack where we are least vulnerable, and I don't think pictures on a juice bottle is it. There's much more at stake here than what my nic products look like. I don't want my base unguarded, either. Nor do I want to run around shooting other vapers when we are more in agreement than not, this is in fact a time to pull together, I think.

Anna

 

[DPLongo22]

Nor do I want to run around shooting other vapers when we are more in agreement than not, this is in fact a time to pull together, I think.

Unfortunately this is where we continue to fail, dating probably back to before I was even vaping, but definitely back at least that far (Provari vs. Darwin, etc..). We continue to find things to separate us, instead of band us together. I've said before that I can't even count the issues that have divided us, and I'm confident that the next one is just around the corner.

The debacle that occurred when factions lined up against each other trying to be The Voice against the FDA was something I'll never forget (to my grave). I don't know that it would have mattered, but it doesn't change the fact that we were unable to get out of our own way, not even for a fight that was potentially for our vaping lives.

Thankfully, I too am optimistic (as others have already pointed out) that basic common sense will win in the end. Will I be around for it? I don't know. To be honest, I don't particularly care either, since I'm also in the group that spent a few years prepping for life after the regs. Barring something horrific, I expect to be vaping for the rest of my life.

In the meantime, I'll continue to make phone calls, and fight for the cause. Not any particular section of the cause (of which there are now too dayum many to count), but the total cause (vaping, period).

 

[stols001]

Sigh, DPLongo, well maybe there won't be a repeat. Bottom line though, we all have to fight for what we believe in, hopefully in some collective(s) as well as inclusive of individual viewpoints. I know I don't want to be THAT vaper who is so opinionated, we can't band together for continuing support of nic/cig/vape products in a way that makes sense.

I may have that hope beaten out of me, but I'm not ready for that yet.

Anna

 

[DPLongo22]

Sigh, DPLongo, well maybe there won't be a repeat. Bottom line though, we all have to fight for what we believe in, hopefully in some collective(s) as well as inclusive of individual viewpoints. I know I don't want to be THAT vaper who is so opinionated, we can't band together for continuing support of nic/cig/vape products in a way that makes sense.

I may have that hope beaten out of me, but I'm not ready for that yet.

Anna

I wouldn't worry too much, Anna, as it's likely that the entire lot of us represent but a microcosm of the numbers that will soon exist (as vapers). The growth has been dramatic, and there's no reason to expect that it won't continue on course.

As the numbers grow, so will the strength. Vaping will win - it's almost inevitable.

Meanwhile, we might all still be fighting ("Watts vs. volts!") among ourselves while the war is being won by the masses that will surely dwarf us.

In the meantime, a little laughter and a good vape go a pretty long way.