Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Kent C]

First, In the portion of my post that you quoted, I was speaking specifically to what Gottlieb himself said

I knew that :- ) I was expanding on that from what Zeller said is all, ...to make the larger point - not disagreeing or querying you.

And,

I did miss what you are saying that Zeller said, ie that e cigarette use does not lead to combustible tobacco use, however on this point he would disagree then with Gotteib but I will go back to the video to see what he said specifically.

...I did not say that Zeller said that e cigarette use does not lead to combustible tobacco use, (he has many times - see the Senate Committee hearing with Rockefeller, Burr, et al a while back) ... only that he said basically -'we aren't going to stop kids from foolish and reckless behavior' which is what the 'gateway' to smoking (or any other 'vice') is, AND they are not going to 'fix' that. (I could cite my next post above :- ) ... but it isn't always 'stupid' - just the experimental part of growing up. )

 

[Opinionated]

I knew that :- ) I was expanding on that from what Zeller said is all, ...to make the larger point - not disagreeing or querying you.

And,




...I did not say that Zeller said that e cigarette use does not lead to combustible tobacco use, (he has many times - see the Senate Committee hearing with Rockefeller, Burr, et al a while back) ... only that he said basically -'we aren't going to stop kids from foolish and reckless behavior' which is what the 'gateway' to smoking (or any other 'vice') is, AND they are not going to 'fix' that. (I could cite my next post above :- ) ... but it isn't always 'stupid' - just the experimental part of growing up. )

hmm... what I see him saying here starting from the 57 minute mark, is that he is simply reiterating what Gottleib said saying no, we wont stop the experimentation but that low nicotine cigarettes or non addictive cigarettes will be a key element from stopping kids from becoming addicted to cigarettes when/if they do experiment with them. In both places they are talking about this being a package deal in order to prevent the most serious and deadly addiction from taking place in youth via cigarette smoking.

Okay, so let me get this straight. What your suggesting is that they need to concentrate on no/low smoke combustible cigarettes rather than no or low nicotine combustible cigarettes?

Question for you.. do you believe there is more in cigarettes that is addictive than nicotine AND smoke? That the multitude of other chemicals involved also create a more addictive atmosphere in smoking cigarettes?

Personally, I think eliminating smoke from cigarettes may be a plus, but as far as addictive qualities, there is a lot more in a cigarette that needs eliminated than just nicotine and smoke. I went through serious withdrawals even with vaping, and many people do. This withdrawal off cigarettes even with a "smoke" element (aka vapor) and a nicotine element is why many potential vapers fail when first trying electronic cigarettes. Certainly, a high enough nicotine level as well as the vapor is a great help which is why its more successful than any other quit smoking aid out there, but there is still the element of withdrawal even with all this.

I think there should be some attempt to isolate what that is, what causes that, and address it as an addictive element in smoking and, if possible, remove it.

 

[ScottP]

I am afraid that through corruption and willful ignorance more people will either stay stuck on cigarettes or worse be forced back to them from vaping.

Looks like it may be more true than they probably even knew: "Where ignorance reigns life is lost" - RATM

 

[Kent C]

Okay, so let me get this straight. What your suggesting is that they need to concentrate on no/low smoke combustible cigarettes rather than no or low nicotine combustible cigarettes?

Yeah, we're on different pages - likely my fault, but just to be clear.... I'm not suggesting they need to concentrate on no/low smoke - Zeller is - by what he said - that it isn't nicotine but smoke that is the problem. If that is the case then they should concentrate on lowering smoke rather than nicotine - right?? But their proposed 'solution' is to lower the nic levels - which didn't work before - see my comments on "Zeller is now lying"...on the original post regarding this seminar:

Scott Gottlieb etc Discuss "The Regulation of Nicotine" Webcast 1PM 10/19/17

Yet... as I suggested, it is the smoke that is part of the addiction - possibly more than nicotine since their NRTs don't work for stopping smoking but ecigs do - what's the difference?? Both have nicotine? The difference is Vapor! (which simulates smoke) and which the other NRTs don't.

Question for you.. do you believe there is more in cigarettes that is addictive than nicotine AND smoke? That the multitude of other chemicals involved also create a more addictive atmosphere in smoking cigarettes?

No. While we've seen some people seem to benefit by adding WTA to their eliquids, many who have quit smoking via ecigs have not needed WTA to do so. So while I see a great benefit from not having the thousands of other stuff in cigs, I don't think they are the reason people continue to smoke - that is mainly - nicotine and smoke, and I am more of a proponent of smoke/vapor being more of a factor, since many have gone to no nic and continue to vape (not me, as I like the effect nicotine has on my body and may have in avoiding Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and other ailments, and gaining the 'relaxed focus' that nicotine can have on individuals. ) And while I still use some nic in my diy eliquids, I don't seem the need of it from an addicted point of view, only from a beneficial one.

 

[Bronze]

Hey, it was the British medical establishment that gave the world the 95% safer number for vaping. America gave you Deeming. I know you guys put men on the moon and saved us from Hitler, but we get some stuff right over there.

I try to stay out of politics here. But during Bill Clinton times I used to hear about all the bad stuff that happened in England health-wise. I remember Rush telling folks how people were taken off dialysis when they hit 45, or 73% of people who needed cataract surgery went blind before they got to the top of the waiting list.

Jeez. I had just come over from there. I knew Rush and his political cronies were lying. I tried to warn people, but nobody listened.

"death panels ( the determining who is deserving of treatment and who isn't)". Awful business. Those decisions should be left where they have always been, in the just and capable hands of insurance company accountants. Death Panels? From the mouth of an Alaskan halfwit to the ears of the American people, and how many years later it's still around?

Just saying. Don't believe what you're told about the horrors of medicine in the Socialist Republics Of Europe. They are lying to you.

I don't even like the idea of the government being put in a position to determine Quality Adjusted Life Years. If they don't do it explicitly they do it implicitly or create the conditions to go there at some point. Ronald Reagan sarcastically said it best. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

 

[Opinionated]

Yeah, we're on different pages - likely my fault, but just to be clear.... I'm not suggesting they need to concentrate on no/low smoke - Zeller is - by what he said - that it isn't nicotine but smoke that is the problem. If that is the case then they should concentrate on lowering smoke rather than nicotine - right?? But their proposed 'solution' is to lower the nic levels - which didn't work before - see my comments on "Zeller is now lying"...on the original post regarding this seminar:

Scott Gottlieb etc Discuss "The Regulation of Nicotine" Webcast 1PM 10/19/17

Yet... as I suggested, it is the smoke that is part of the addiction - possibly more than nicotine since their NRTs don't work for stopping smoking but ecigs do - what's the difference?? Both have nicotine? The difference is Vapor! (which simulates smoke) and which the other NRTs don't.



No. While we've seen some people seem to benefit by adding WTA to their eliquids, many who have quit smoking via ecigs have not needed WTA to do so. So while I see a great benefit from not having the thousands of other stuff in cigs, I don't think they are the reason people continue to smoke - that is mainly - nicotine and smoke, and I am more of a proponent of smoke/vapor being more of a factor, since many have gone to no nic and continue to vape (not me, as I like the effect nicotine has on my body and may have in avoiding Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and other ailments, and gaining the 'relaxed focus' that nicotine can have on individuals. ) And while I still use some nic in my diy eliquids, I don't seem the need of it from an addicted point of view, only from a beneficial one.

First I do apologize for not realizing you put the podcast up and started an entire thread concerning this discussion panel. I would have added my voice/thoughts to your thread, this is just the only thread I read on the legislation.. I don't know why perhaps I should subscribe to the legislation forum, I might not miss so much! So, forgive me for that anyway. Your notes were much lovelier than mine..


You are correct about what Zeller was saying - same page now..

Here is my thoughts on the points you brought up. I believe nicotine is not addictive, its why we can slowly, and very naturally, stop using it once outside of our addiction to cigarettes. For me, it took me one year to leave the house without my mod and not miss it even though I was gone for hours. We find after a while nearly all of us who try can lower our nicotine levels without any ill affects - what it is helpful in, is the transition from smoking to vaping. But when outside of cigarettes, I don't see it as an addictive substance perse. (neither does the FDA either or they would require prescriptions and oversight for NRT's)

What I do think, is that through our (in many cases) nearly lifelong addiction to cigarettes, new pathways are created through that addiction inside our brains. The FDA is blaming nicotine FOR these pathways being created, but I don't think nicotine creates them. I think the addiction as a whole does (which goes toward the other substances inside cigarettes being more causal to addiction.)

Inside these new pathways, just as much as there is a challenge (for many of us) concerning withdrawals off of cigarettes even while vaping through the transitional phases of quitting smoking, there is a challenge in overcoming these pathways we spent a lifetime creating, pathways that cause a hand to mouth habit, that gives us the urge during stress to go to a quiet place and smoke, that gives us the desire to smoke after dinner etc.

While all this once was learned behavior, it becomes an absent minded behavior, a habit all by itself through time and due to the addiction processes inside the brain - creating pathways that leave you reaching for that smoke.

Vaping, fulfills that hand to mouth smoking action. While we may go through withdrawals from quitting smoking, we can still fulfill that pathway and chain vape through those withdrawals. And as a result, be able to overcome to worst of the addiction and transition away from cigarette smoking. This is why e cigarettes are successful in so many where NRT's fail.

That said, once we are outside of cigarettes, while it may take time and determination and a good sized distance from the addiction to cigarettes, we can also overcome those habits (the hand to mouth) that we learned through a lifetime of smoking cigarettes, if we so choose.

Why NRT's fail so miserably, is they attempt to overcome ALL aspects of the addiction all at the same time, which is too much for most people to handle. While e cigarettes don't - with them the process is incremental.

But I do believe there is more in cigarettes that is addictive (more than the oft accused nicotine), but that because vaping doesn't require you to overcome all aspects of the addiction and habits formed over a lifetime all at once, it becomes much more successful in nature, allowing a more gradual elimination of all forms of the addiction and habit associated with (long term) cigarette use.

 

[Kent C]

First I do apologize for not realizing you put the podcast up and started an entire thread concerning this discussion panel. I would have added my voice/thoughts to your thread, this is just the only thread I read on the legislation..

No need to apologize. I was thinking of linking it in this thread as well (since it is more active) so was glad to see somebody did

For me, it took me one year to leave the house without my mod and not miss it even though I was gone for hours

Same here. I can go hours without vaping. Not so with cigs. I carried a pack, put 2 packs in the car and a lighter

What I do think, is that through our (in many cases) nearly lifelong addiction to cigarettes, new pathways are created through that addiction inside our brains. The FDA is blaming nicotine FOR these pathways being created, but I don't think nicotine creates them. I think the addiction as a whole does (which goes toward the other substances inside cigarettes being more causal to addiction.)

I have not studied the actual science that says this is so, but my gut feeling is that the TC crew use this as fearmongering, when their usual pleas of 'stop smoking' (or keep your kids from smoking) hasn't worked.

All habits do form certain pathways into the brain of course - riding a bike, driving, complicated and complex work whether tool and die or shucking oysters (See Dirty Jobs/Mike Rowe, etc.) How long term or damaging setting up those pathways is another question - again, not enough knowledge here but I don't trust the junk science in so many of the politically charged areas on both sides...

Inside these new pathways, just as much as there is a challenge (for many of us) concerning withdrawals off of cigarettes even while vaping through the transitional phases of quitting smoking, there is a challenge in overcoming these pathways we spent a lifetime creating

I didn't have those 'challenges' and from what I've read over the 8 years here on ECF and other forums (not 'pulling rank' on you, it's just a matter of my experience in reading more posts) ... there are many here that quit smoking without withdrawal from their first ecig. For me, it was the second one - one week after a supermini that didn't really create that much vapor.

 

[Kent C]

While we've seen some people seem to benefit by adding WTA to their eliquids, many who have quit smoking via ecigs have not needed WTA to do so.

I should note, this isn't an anti-WTA thing, just that some need it and some don't. In fact, I use the VS DIY non-flavored Aroma eJuice, in one of my (5 or 6) flavors. I tried it out, liked the enhanced taste it provides but didn't need it for over 6 years of vaping.

 

[Opinionated]

No need to apologize. I was thinking of linking it in this thread as well (since it is more active) so was glad to see somebody did



Same here. I can go hours without vaping. Not so with cigs. I carried a pack, put 2 packs in the car and a lighter



I have not studied the actual science that says this is so, but my gut feeling is that the TC crew use this as fearmongering, when their usual pleas of 'stop smoking' (or keep your kids from smoking) hasn't worked.

All habits do form certain pathways into the brain of course - riding a bike, driving, complicated and complex work whether tool and die or shucking oysters (See Dirty Jobs/Mike Rowe, etc.) How long term or damaging setting up those pathways is another question - again, not enough knowledge here but I don't trust the junk science in so many of the politically charged areas on both sides...



I didn't have those 'challenges' and from what I've read over the 8 years here on ECF and other forums (not 'pulling rank' on you, it's just a matter of my experience in reading more posts) ... there are many here that quit smoking without withdrawal from their first ecig. For me, it was the second one - one week after a supermini that didn't really create that much vapor.

I think the pathways is real. As you said all things create pathways. Addiction, all forms of it, DO seem to hard-wire the brain in ways much more difficult for someone who is addicted to overcome. Where that comes from, why on earth that is, that I don't know.. but the pathways inside of any addiction do seem, on the surface, to be much more cemented than the normal pathways our brains create.

Perhaps there is not enough scientific evidence to say for sure what happens to the brain in the addiction process, and perhaps claims concerning pathways may be preliminary in nature... but it does at least seem to be accepted scientifically at this time that there are more solidified pathways created during addiction process.

I think blaming nicotine for those pathways is incorrect however, I will say addiction causes or creates them (if indeed pathways they are) - and with cigarettes its whatever causes the initial addiction which helps to create (or gives the time to create) these more solidified pathways than our normal driving the car ones. Again, just my theory on the topic.

I have heard some say they don't or didn't go through withdrawals when making the switch, yet many do. Each of us are different, but I don't think from what Ive experienced or seen that I am willing to say more don't have withdrawals than do - although you are correct, you have been around much longer than me, and have certainly as a result spoken to more people than I have and dealt with more vapers than I have in the long run, therefore I may someday come to see it differently than I do today.

But around the people I personally know (not online), those individuals having withdrawals has been greater in number than those who didn't have them. What we may see on this forum might be more of the exceptional group, rather than the than the normal. We have to remember that studies show only anywhere from 8 - 30 % of those who try vaping succeed in making the switch (some say 8 is more accurate, others say its really up to 30 if memory serves me correctly) yet nearly everyone here on these and other vaping forums has succeeded in making that switch... therefore, I don't believe we are seeing the truest pool of potential vapers and their challenges in switching when only looking to these forums for our pool.

 

[Opinionated]

I should note, this isn't an anti-WTA thing, just that some need it and some don't. In fact, I use the VS DIY non-flavored Aroma eJuice, in one of my (5 or 6) flavors. I tried it out, liked the enhanced taste it provides but didn't need it for over 6 years of vaping.

Oh, I certainly didn't think you were being anti WTA, and neither am I - I am not blaming them at any rate.. I don't know much about wta's myself.. as far as what causes actual addiction that is inside cigarettes, to me for all we know it could be a combination of things, including chemical additives that somehow mix with other natural chemicals inside cigarettes creating a much more addictive substance than otherwise exists.

I don't think much past nicotine has ever been researched.. all they want to say is nicotine nicotine nicotine all the time, and I found myself utterly shocked that I was partaking of said "addictive" aspect of cigarettes and still having massive withdrawals.. even with vaping.

It definitely led me to rethink what was actually addictive about cigarettes over the years, and why vaping is successful in the way that it is..

 

[Kent C]

Just in general @Opinionated... I agree on pathways - some tend to be permanent - say on 'balance' regarding bike riding and others no so permanent. For 7 years before ECF I was a fixture in the retouch forum at DPReview. I had Photoshop 'down' (as far as anyone can....lol) Only using it in rare times now, those pathways have faded away. I didn't even restore Photoshop to my computer after a new computer. But were I to get into it again, it would be easier to recreate those pathways. "Damaging" is what I question. And I said why.

WTA wasn't directed at you. Just a comment on the thousands of chemicals added, some of which are natural to tobacco, most are not. I wanted to 'clear' that to the WTA users that read here too. :- )

 

[Rossum]

It definitely led me to rethink what was actually addictive about cigarettes over the years, and why vaping is successful in the way that it is..

I think all of this stuff varies from person to person.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that there are plenty of people who've successfully quit smoking without any kind of NRT at all.

Conversely, there are some (like me) for whom vaping was the one thing that did work (and worked fairly easily) but who won't get up from his desk to answer the door (much less leave the house) without taking a mod with him, and who find it very difficult to lower their nic level without compensating for it by simply vaping more juice.

And then there are those for whom vaping hasn't worked at all.

 

[Opinionated]

Just in general @Opinionated... I agree on pathways - some tend to be permanent - say on 'balance' regarding bike riding and others no so permanent. For 7 years before ECF I was a fixture in the retouch forum at DPReview. I had Photoshop 'down' (as far as anyone can....lol) Only using it in rare times now, those pathways have faded away. I didn't even restore Photoshop to my computer after a new computer. But were I to get into it again, it would be easier to recreate those pathways. "Damaging" is what I question. And I said why.

WTA wasn't directed at you. Just a comment on the thousands of chemicals added, some of which are natural to tobacco, most are not. I wanted to 'clear' that to the WTA users that read here too. :- )

Ah... yes that you did say. On that aspect I do agree.

lol @ Photoshop..

Was awesome speaking with you!

 

[Opinionated]

I think all of this stuff varies from person to person.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that there are plenty of people who've successfully quit smoking without any kind of NRT at all.

Conversely, there are some (like me) for whom vaping was the one thing that did work (and worked fairly easily) but who won't get up from his desk to answer the door (much less leave the house) without taking a mod with him, and who find it very difficult to lower their nic level without compensating for it by simply vaping more juice.

And then there are those for whom vaping hasn't worked at all.

True, and its a very good thing to keep in mind..


As a beside, are we sure successful cold turkey quitters are real people? hahahaha (JK)

 

[coldgin96]

As a beside, are we sure successful cold turkey quitters are real people? hahahaha (JK)

My Grandma smoked since she was 14. She was up to 3 packs a day. She would smoke a pack between dinner and bed. She quit cold turkey when she was 80. Kept her last smoked cigarette .... in a ash tray on her night stand next to her bed until she died 11 years later at 91.
Btw, my Grandfather was married to and lived with her since the end of WWII. He died at 92 in 2012.

 

[Kent C]

Was awesome speaking with you!

Likewise!

 

[Katya]

Gottlieb, I even wrote you a Love Letter. Why are you doing this to meeeee??????

I've been thinking about Gottlieb and why he's suddenly agreeing with Zeller and Schumer and generally changing his tune. One explanation that comes to my tired mind is that he's hoping to replace Price at HHS. It's a much more prestigious job and Gottlieb is a physician. HHS is a bigger organization and has more power (it runs NIH, among other things). So maybe he's just decided to lie low for a while and be generally agreeable--just in case. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. Grasping at straws?

Great conversation, BTW. I thoroughly enjoyed the ride.

 

[stols001]

I don't claim to know why cigs are addictive, but I will say I was NOT that smoker that had an easy time transitioning even with WTA, even with nic salts (which I think in some ways were the most helpful thing for me of all) but I do agree that nicotine plays a role (the only times I've ever quit other than when pregnant and nursing-- and I was pretty grouchy-- was with nic gum). But, it did not replace my hand to mouth habit, and I knit feverishly the entire time (6 mo) to try and deal with it.

What amazes me about vaping is that ONCE I had transitioned, it became easy. I suppose for some folks, cold turkey becomes easy after a while, but I did NOT feel that way AT ALL the entire time I was pregnant and nursing, I craved cigarettes a LOT. And that was close to 2.5 years. So for me, Cold Turkey is just intensely painful, which I've heard from other cold turkey smokers, that they still craved cigarettes from time to time (sometimes often) and had to fight off the cravings. With vaping, that doesn't happen for me. I guess it is the fact that it closely mimics smoking in terms of the behavioral habit. And I find the behavioral habit (picking something up, inhaling, exhaling, etc.) deeply soothing. I don't think that would be the case for me with 0 nic, however, at least not at this time, because I do believe that nicotine is a PART of the addiction, and it's known that the nicotinic receptors in your brain do proliferate and grow over time, and demand satiation.

There are plenty of other parts of the brain "demanding" satiation, or I wouldn't have had the kind of W/D I did, and it was pretty bad. WTA really helped with that transition, but I am a firm believer that MAOIs are not addictive per se, but if you stop feeding your brain them abruptly, your brain is going to freak out until it recalibrates. I was ill and off work anyway when I transitioned, but I felt bad enough that I probably would have had to not work for a bit in order to get through them. I couldn't focus, felt ill, felt insane, oh the list goes on. MAOIs are about one of the most powerful anti-depressant and anti-anxiety meds on the market (though no one prescribes them anymore since they are off patent and also can have some scary side effects-- but they work.). For someone being fed a steady, linearly increasing diet of them for over 2 decades, recalibration was Very Intense. So I think that part matters a lot, not just the nicotine.

There is no way the tobacco lobby is going to allow for all cigs to become smokeless, it is sounding more like this is Gottleib's (weak) attempt to reduce harm in cigs without bringing down the Wrath of The Tobacco Lobby upon his head. Don't forget that just because the FDA can "deem" stuff, that is not happening in a political or societal vacuum. It's just not, and one organization is not going to be able to remove the entire smoking industry from all the states who are counting on that income. I'm left, after this podcast, entirely unsure as to what will happen to vaping-- and cigarettes-- and no one is being clear at all.

Since vaping is working for me, I sort of plan to get everything I need, somewhat beggaring myself in the process, but at least then I am Done and I know I can continue vaping without undue influence, whenever it comes down the pike.

Whatever happened to Let the Kids make the Mistakes and Learn from them, I wonder? I don't blame ANYONE but me for starting smoking. Not my parents, not the tobacco industry (I had very little interest in tobacco ads or anything else at that age). I made a bad choice, with enough bravado to think that I could undo that choice whenever I wanted.

I learned that some bad choices can't be undone and that was a valuable lesson for me. I am So Grateful to E-cigs because they were the only thing that could help me turn that bad choice into a lesser bad choice. I mean that completely sincerely, and I just hope vaping will be around for ALL of use to come, INCLUDING the children. And, if Gottlieb thinks he's gonna win this on "flavor" that's nuts.

Okay.

Anna

 

[Robino1]

On the subject of those that quit smoking 'cold turkey', I know of many that did so only to pick it up again ten plus years out. I've even talked to a few that still think about cigarettes on almost a daily basis.

It makes you wonder if some stats are skewed. Do they even keep track of those that have quit but then go back years later?

Sorry, my thoughts are wandering again.

 

[1/2 fast]

I've been thinking about Gottlieb and why he's suddenly agreeing with Zeller and Schumer and generally changing his tune. One explanation that comes to my tired mind is that he's hoping to replace Price at HHS. It's a much more prestigious job and Gottlieb is a physician. HHS is a bigger organization and has more power (it runs NIH, among other things). So maybe he's just decided to lie low for a while and be generally agreeable--just in case. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. Grasping at straws?

Great conversation, BTW. I thoroughly enjoyed the ride.

More likely he’s just decided to lie for awhile........... It’s not as if any of these people even care whether or not we wake up the next morning. Let alone give a about our health.