Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

ScottP

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TBH, IF all they do is regulate packing, I can live with that. The FDA has to at least appear to "do something" so they are going to do something. As long as I can still buy what I want, I don't care if it comes in plain brown pictureless packaging with whatever warning label the idiots will accept. I won't agree with the reasoning but I can deal with the result.

What I will not tolerate is taking everything off the market completely in the name of BS reasoning.
 

MacTechVpr

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TBH, IF all they do is regulate packing, I can live with that. The FDA has to at least appear to "do something" so they are going to do something. As long as I can still buy what I want, I don't care if it comes in plain brown pictureless packaging with whatever warning label the idiots will accept. I won't agree with the reasoning but I can deal with the result.

What I will not tolerate is taking everything off the market completely in the name of BS reasoning.

In a long career spent largely satisfying bureaucrats, I can assure you that they never are.

So I can't. Because it will never stop with that. A lifetime tells me.

As for the taking of the market. It's already happened. No amount of reassurance will convince me that the hand reaching in my back pocket is merely flattery.

Good luck. :)
 

Mowgli

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They must keep all vaper products behind the counter and out of sight in Quebec
Bill Tarling said I can quote him about Quebec -
"they're not even allowed to have a website or any social media (such as a Facebook page) where they can even say what products they carry -- they're only allowed to post the name of their business, the address and contact info, and their store hours... Mentioning what they sell can get them a fine"
8 Rules to Follow if You Sell E-cigarettes in Quebec
He sent me this YT link from 1.5 years ago.
 
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stols001

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In principle, I agree with @Opinionated . Placating the FDA by changing package will only work for the short term, if at all. I would ONLY state that changing packaging would be okay, if there were some sort off executive order that it would be the only change to flavors.

Giving in/up on packaging and we become the frog in the cold water that gradually heats up. We agree to a change, stop fighting it, and the "battle" against flavoring continues. It's too late now and the FDA knows it. They have announced they are addressing flavors, and if they make this small change first (to reassure vapers, "Well, at least it is just packaging."

That makes the continuing changes easier to get rammed through.

I don't know a SINGLE kid that vapes who said the packaging got them to choose a flavor. Cute packaging actually appeals more to ADULTS, IMO who may have nostalgia for "good time" old fashioned funny bottles. Teens really aren't "cute" and "cute" doesn't appeal to them.

Packaging is irrelevant (on both sides really) which is why the FDA nay choose it first. You gotta do something while the water heats up slowly and kills the frog.

Anan
 

Shawn Hoefer

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Hey FDA, want to talk about labels that attract kids.

View attachment 739025
But then, we don't have a teenage drinking, or drunk driving problem do we ????
I filled out the survey, but I think a lot of vapers are well stocked for years to come, and therefore are not concerned anymore.
They have themselves covered, and feeling they can't fight the system (people being "bought" off), don't care what the FDA does.
Just my :2c:
Alcohol is taxed. Eliquid (in most places) is not.

Making liquor at home (not beer or wine) is illegal. Making eliquid is not (yet)

I guarantee that if they found a way to easily tax the *%^&&%$*&(^ out of eliquids AND make it illegal to make at home, there'd be a lot less of the ANTZ propaganda.

It's not about the children. It's not about our health. It's about the $$$ that they're losing as vapers quit buying outrageously taxed cigarettes and outrageously priced quit aids.
 

Rossum

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Making liquor at home (not beer or wine) is illegal. Making eliquid is not (yet)

I guarantee that if they found a way to easily tax the *%^&&%$*&(^ out of eliquids AND make it illegal to make at home, there'd be a lot less of the ANTZ propaganda.
Allowing only the sale of FDA-approved closed systems, and cutting off the supply of nic base would accomplish that fairly well without going so far as to make DIY illegal.

I do not think there would be much point in making DIY outright illegal because most folks who DIY already and have substantial nic stashes will continue to do it without regard for any stupid law that bans it.
 

Shawn Hoefer

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Uh oh... I feel a rant coming on...

If the government was really worried about kids and the population's health...

...they would prevent cereals from being loaded with HFCS and sugar and OMFG talk about marketing to kids! Not only are there many hyper-sweetened fruity flavors covered with cartoon characters, but the boxes are placed strategically on the store shelves at kid's eye level. Snack foods and ice creams and additives... Good god, there's just so much wrong with the food system in the US I can't even begin!

...they would ensure that a stable single-payer system for universal health care was in place and properly managed.

...they would regulate big pharma to prevent the massive markups on needed medications.

...they would endorse vaping as a viable way to quit smoking combustibles.

..they would actively teach realistic sex-ed in schools instead of pushing abstinence (because that always works up against raging hormones) to prevent the transmission of STD and unwanted pregnancies.

I could go on and on...

Look... we all know that smoking kills. Obesity and diabetes also kills and the government does not seem to care.
 

Shawn Hoefer

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Allowing only the sale of FDA-approved closed systems, and cutting off the supply of nic base would accomplish that fairly well without going so far as to make DIY illegal.

I do not think there would be much point in making DIY outright illegal because most folks who DIY already and have substantial nic stashes will continue to do it without regard for any stupid law that bans it.
I can go to the feed store and buy corn, then to the grocery store to buy sugar and yeast. Don't mean that making shine is any more legal just because the products are available.

And, who among us is incapable of breaking open a closed pod and emptying the contents into our preferred device :)
 

zoiDman

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...

It's not about the children. It's not about our health. It's about the $$$ that they're losing as vapers quit buying outrageously taxed cigarettes and outrageously priced quit aids.

Not say'n that it Isn't. Because $$$ is the grease that makes Government(s) work. But on this current Flavor offensive, I think Vote getting is playing just as Large of a Role.

It's a Great Political Tactic to Demonize something. Then be the ones to come Swooping in and say that "We can save Your Children from this 'Epidemic' that is Sweeping the Nation".

Vote For Us. It's an Election Year!

Of course, they know they can do Very Little. And their Methods are akin to Cutting Off the Arm to stop a Cut on the Finger from Bleeding. But to Most who know Little or Nothing about something, it Does sound Reasonable.

I mean, who Doesn't Want to Save the Children? Right?

And that's a Problem with the Small Percentage of the Packaging that some e-Liquids are Market in. It plays Perfectly into the "Save the Children" person's argument.

And you Can't Get a House or Senate Member to stand up and Defend this type of Marketing. Even if they are Sympathetic to Adult e-Cigarette use. Because He/She has their own Election/Re-Election race to run.

So yeah... It's about Money. But it is Also about Saying and Doing what gets you Votes.
 
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CMD-Ky

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Or they could mandate full disclosure of ingredients in legible font, let the people decide for themselves and get the (self-restraint) out of the way.

Uh oh... I feel a rant coming on...

If the government was really worried about kids and the population's health...

...they would prevent cereals from being loaded with HFCS and sugar and OMFG talk about marketing to kids! Not only are there many hyper-sweetened fruity flavors covered with cartoon characters, but the boxes are placed strategically on the store shelves at kid's eye level. Snack foods and ice creams and additives... Good god, there's just so much wrong with the food system in the US I can't even begin!

...they would ensure that a stable single-payer system for universal health care was in place and properly managed.

...they would regulate big pharma to prevent the massive markups on needed medications.

...they would endorse vaping as a viable way to quit smoking combustibles.

..they would actively teach realistic sex-ed in schools instead of pushing abstinence (because that always works up against raging hormones) to prevent the transmission of STD and unwanted pregnancies.

I could go on and on...

Look... we all know that smoking kills. Obesity and diabetes also kills and the government does not seem to care.
 

Rossum

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Uh oh... I feel a rant coming on...

If the government was really worried about kids and the population's health...

...they would prevent cereals from being loaded with HFCS and sugar and OMFG talk about marketing to kids! Not only are there many hyper-sweetened fruity flavors covered with cartoon characters, but the boxes are placed strategically on the store shelves at kid's eye level. Snack foods and ice creams and additives... Good god, there's just so much wrong with the food system in the US I can't even begin!

...they would ensure that a stable single-payer system for universal health care was in place and properly managed.

...they would regulate big pharma to prevent the massive markups on needed medications.

...they would endorse vaping as a viable way to quit smoking combustibles.

..they would actively teach realistic sex-ed in schools instead of pushing abstinence (because that always works up against raging hormones) to prevent the transmission of STD and unwanted pregnancies.

I could go on and on...

Look... we all know that smoking kills. Obesity and diabetes also kills and the government does not seem to care.
I don't mean to take this thread off track. I absolutely agree that obesity and diabetes also kills, but I really do cannot accept the notion that government should be in charge of children's diets, be the monopoly provider of health care, or effectively socialize the pharma industry. Restricting people's choices is not a good solution to any of these problems.
 

Shawn Hoefer

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I mean, who Doesn't Want to Save the Children? Right?
I work in the state parks sometimes, so I get to see LOTS of children.

Most of 'em I would not want to save.

And I'm bein' real polite and politic, here...


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Shawn Hoefer

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I don't mean to take this thread off track. I absolutely agree that obesity and diabetes also kills, but I really do cannot accept the notion that government should be in charge of children's diets, be the monopoly provider of health care, or effectively socialize the pharma industry. Restricting people's choices is not a good solution to any of these problems.

I'm just looking for some common sense out there...

Not saying that they should be I charge of anyone's diet. Saying that IF they actually gave a flying ffffff they'd be working to regulate and educate. Instead, they turn a blind eye on the problem and allow an entire generation to suffer the consequences.

Further, single payer does not make the government in charge or limit choice. Just means that instead of everybody filing different paperwork with dozens of agencies and practices, each having negotiated different settlements, one Bill is presented and paid for.

As for pharma? I have a scrip I'm currently taking for a stomach disorder. In liquid form, it's $345 and not covered by insurance. In pill form, it's covered by insurance with a $5 copay. How is that common sense?

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Shawn Hoefer

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Or they could mandate full disclosure of ingredients in legible font, let the people decide for themselves and get the (self-restraint) out of the way.
With no code words or hidden ingredients. HFCS is high fructose corn syrup. Corn sugar is high fructose corn syrup. And, what the hell are natural and artificial flavors? I mean cyanide is natural... Don't want it used as a flavoring.

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stols001

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I really think it's interesting actually. My kiddo (whom, I used to have to practically hold a hot pan over his head going, you're eating the broccoli one way or another, by choice is more pleasant) is like, obsessed with a healthy diet. I think there was a fair amount of teaching in schools and by example, but it's something he considers. LOL, I taught him how to shop by price unit (you'd be shocked how many folks don't understand that concept) and he is now also shopping by "caloric and nutritive unit."

The little monster of COURSE decided to do this after leaving home, LOL, but he really is very concerned about diabetes.

I will say I believe it to be a societal issue, and frankly many folks on food stamps, well, that's one area they can almost "addict" themselves to, without a great deal of outlay. I've been told (I have not fact checked it) that while obesity may be endemic in society today, that it's also a poverty and educational issue. I took the kid to various food pantries at times because he was poor, and I was really shocked at what they "provided." To call it "non-nutritive" was almost an understatement and the closest thing they had to a "fruit" was a peach pie. So, often times, unfortunately, the best "cheapest" options available are starches. They really are, take a good hard look at the cost of meat compared to say "bread" sometime.

It's also a cultural thing. The tribes around here have diabetes as ABSOLUTELY endemic, and it's really based on such a huge move away from their more traditional diet.

IMHO as ALWAYS, though, the government COULD consider the idea of say, not allowing you to purchase a diet soda and a bag of skittles, but I'm not particularly loving that idea either.

The frustration with diabetes, is eating healthy and exercising is JUST as challenging in terms of lifestyle change compared to smoking vs. vaping. We all KNOW what's healthy, but doing it? That can be quite harder. I'd love to see Food stamps give some OPTIONAL extras, say, $100 more a month, but designating it to protein, vegetables, and fresh fruits. It at least OFFERS the motivation of a more healthy eating style.

IMO, the solution to a problem is never to "remove" or "punish" the offending person, but to do something the US seems to have a very time doing anymore-- to REWARD people by making healthy choices.

Also, (IMHO) if the government gave any CONSIDERATION to my health, at the very least I should have been able to DEDUCT my vape gear and nicotine as part of my healthcare expenses, not worry about FLAVORS. LOL.

I am now entering a realm of such fantastical (although also IMO TRUE) logical attempt to look at vaping as it SHOULD be regarded, I will stop.

Behavioral therapy proved LONG ago that incentivizing a behavior works WAY better than punishing the "negative" behavior. Why the government cannot wrap their heads around this escapes me (or I'd be saying some rather nasty things) but it's TRUE.

The best, easiest, cheapest way to fix a problem is to INCENTIVIZE the opposing behavior. The government itself is a token "economy" of sorts, they for darn sure should be able to CREATE one..

Anna
 

ScottP

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...they would ensure that a stable single-payer system for universal health care was in place and properly managed.

There already is a single payer system in the US that only serves a small segment of the population. It's called the VA. While the VA does a lot of good for a lot of people and some people actually get GREAT care through it, it is also severely mismanaged, extremely bureaucratic, and many people have died while waiting in a line to get in the line to be treated. In other words the US Government has proven that it cannot properly manage health care in this smaller segment, I KNOW they could not do it on a larger scale.

Further, single payer does not make the government in charge or limit choice. Just means that instead of everybody filing different paperwork with dozens of agencies and practices, each having negotiated different settlements, one Bill is presented and paid for.

The term "Single Payer" does NOT mean patients get one bill, it means the US Government essentially becomes the insurance company for everyone and all insurance companies go out of business. Right off the bat that would put a few million people out of work, so not off to a good start. Just like insurance companies can choose what drugs are covered, the USG would too, but now that choice could be influenced by lobbyists and political donations. With the USG paying all the bills you can bet that to save money they would regulate people's choice to do anything that could cost them money.
 

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