Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
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But, at what price do you think those "black market" eliquids will be sold? I'm betting they'll be even higher priced than commercial eliquids are now. Also, if you're a "buyer" of them...how would you determine who to buy from...as far as their reputation, the sanitary conditions of the place where it's made, the quality of the ingredients used in it, etc?
IMO, now or in the near future, would be a great time for anyone who doesn't currently DIY, to stash a few liters of nic base and take the initial steps with learning to DIY. The PG & VG can be bought in smaller quantities to start with while learning. To avoid having to buy many individual flavorings from the get-go...start out by trying a few of the "One Stop Flavors" and/or "One Stop Blends" from OSDIY, or the "One Shot" flavorings that other vendors sell now. Those have all the flavorings for a recipe...already combined in the 1 bottle! There's some really good ones out there, IMO. You can't get much easier than using 1 of them for DIY, if you want flavored eliquids. You'd just combine plain PG + plain VG + nic base + some of a single "One Stop Flavor", "One Stop Blend", or "One Shot". Using an eliquid calculator would show you exactly how much of each to use...according to the batch size you're making, and the final PG/VG ratio and nic mg you want in the finished eliquid.
I personally DIY using some of the "One Stop Flavors" and "One Stop Blends", as well as making recipes that require several individual flavorings. However, I've found 4-5 of the all-in-one flavorings that I could use to make all my eliquids to vape for the rest of my life, and still be a perfectly happy vaper. DIY can be as simple or as involved as the maker chooses for it to be.
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Sweet-Vapes quit making their own juices on 8/8/2016 without any warning. I tried many of their eliquids and I didn't care for them except one. That was their Nutty Coffee which I absolutely loved! It has been almost 3 years now and I haven't found anything close to it. Best ejuice I ever had.
Yea, IMO, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what's happened in the last few years. The surveys of teens have shown that cigarette use among them decreased and then has remained pretty steady, but vaping among teens has risen. HELLO...1) Many teens who were previously smoking...have wised up and have switched to vaping, 2) Considering a teen to be "a vaper" if they've only vaped once in the last 30 days, is ridicuous, and 3) Teens often aren't truthful on those surveys, for a variety of reasons. I know that to be true because I taught teens for 30 years, and we had discussions about those same "surveys" they used to take while in my class!
IIRC it was Judge Judy who years ago said, "The only time you can be certain a teen isn't telling a lie...is when his/her mouth isn't moving." (Of course, teens nowadays though, don't do much verbal communicating at all.)
Unfortunately, I see the same ballooning of teen smoking, that you see coming in the future, if everything the FDA has planned really takes place.
ETA: Just to clarify, I don't think those who are underage should be smoking or vaping. But given the choice of 1 or the other, because many of them ARE going to do it...I'd rather they vaped than smoked.
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Joking apart defining a flavored juice isn't going to be straightforward. All those flavors are made from a cocktail of chemicals. I'm sure there's a chemical called l-crypto-something that is a component of tobacco flavor and also a component of strawberry flavor. Is sweetener a flavor?
I suspect that defining tobacco / non-tobacco purely in terms of the component chemicals would be a mess.
Defining it in terms of how it tastes would be too subjective.
I suspect that defining tobacco / non-tobacco purely in terms of the component chemicals would be a mess.
Defining it in terms of how it tastes would be too subjective.
Probably it will come down to the FDA saying we will know it when we see it. And since they have the power to decide through their approval process, that's all it will take. They just have to say, prove to us that it is only tobacco and if we aren't convinced then you're out of luck. No explanation required.
Are they planning to allow unflavored, or very lightly flavored tobacco? In that case it would be ridiculously simple to buy a bottle, add a few drops of completely legal food flavoring, and shake.
It's hard to avoid the logic that to make this flavor rule work in practice they would need to back it up with a sealed juice tank rule.And / or a ban on bulk nicotine. If they haven't figured this out yet they will figure it out soon.
Are they planning to allow unflavored, or very lightly flavored tobacco? In that case it would be ridiculously simple to buy a bottle, add a few drops of completely legal food flavoring, and shake.
It's hard to avoid the logic that to make this flavor rule work in practice they would need to back it up with a sealed juice tank rule.And / or a ban on bulk nicotine. If they haven't figured this out yet they will figure it out soon.
Welcome back, Jman!
It will certainly exist, but it remains to be seen how big and accessible it will be.
So I finally got around to reading the whole thing. Here are a few notes/thoughts.
First, it doesn't sound like a complete ban on flavors, it sounds more like tobacco mint and menthol are going to be exempted from enforcement of the PMTA process and only the "other" flavors are going to have to go through the PMTA process. This means flavors can still exist BUT only if approved by the PMTA process. Second, because the PMTA process is very expensive, I would expect only the absolute best, top selling flavors from the biggest manufacturers are even submitted, so flavor choice is still going to be seriously restricted. Finally, the enforcement is going to happen in stages.
The first stage will occur 30 DAYS after the finalization of this new Guideline and will focus on products "that are offered for sale in ways that pose a greater risk for minors to access such products". Which I take to mean they will
remove all non tobacco, mint, menthol flavors of pod type systems from places minors can freely enter as well as online vendors without proper age verification or online vendors that have no quantity limits. They will also be focusing on any product they deem is "targeting minors" both at retail outlets and online.
The second stage will cover ALL non-tobacco mint or menthol flavored products that have not submitted a PMTA application starting on August 8, 2021. This stage will affect all B&M and online sales regardless of age verification.
What this means is that if you are currently using a flavored JUUL or other prefilled pod type solution, you may lose access to flavors in as few as 60-90 days from NOW. They could potentially still be available in vape shops and specific online sources. It is unclear which specific retailers will be allowed to carry these or if they will even continue to be manufactured. Non-pod type liquids may still be available until 2021 but I would expect a lot of eliquid manufacturers to close up shop or sell their business prior to that date unless they have the funds to actually submit to the PMTA process by that deadline. This will lead to very few flavors from only a few large manufacturers.
Maybe if just getting rid of flavored pods decreases the minor use rates then they will relax the rest down the line, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
First, it doesn't sound like a complete ban on flavors, it sounds more like tobacco mint and menthol are going to be exempted from enforcement of the PMTA process and only the "other" flavors are going to have to go through the PMTA process. This means flavors can still exist BUT only if approved by the PMTA process. Second, because the PMTA process is very expensive, I would expect only the absolute best, top selling flavors from the biggest manufacturers are even submitted, so flavor choice is still going to be seriously restricted. Finally, the enforcement is going to happen in stages.
The first stage will occur 30 DAYS after the finalization of this new Guideline and will focus on products "that are offered for sale in ways that pose a greater risk for minors to access such products". Which I take to mean they will
remove all non tobacco, mint, menthol flavors of pod type systems from places minors can freely enter as well as online vendors without proper age verification or online vendors that have no quantity limits. They will also be focusing on any product they deem is "targeting minors" both at retail outlets and online.
The second stage will cover ALL non-tobacco mint or menthol flavored products that have not submitted a PMTA application starting on August 8, 2021. This stage will affect all B&M and online sales regardless of age verification.
What this means is that if you are currently using a flavored JUUL or other prefilled pod type solution, you may lose access to flavors in as few as 60-90 days from NOW. They could potentially still be available in vape shops and specific online sources. It is unclear which specific retailers will be allowed to carry these or if they will even continue to be manufactured. Non-pod type liquids may still be available until 2021 but I would expect a lot of eliquid manufacturers to close up shop or sell their business prior to that date unless they have the funds to actually submit to the PMTA process by that deadline. This will lead to very few flavors from only a few large manufacturers.
Maybe if just getting rid of flavored pods decreases the minor use rates then they will relax the rest down the line, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Teens doing something rebellious to society? Always have, always will. It's just a matter of what. Start a public campaign telling them they are forbidden from smoking poke root and my money would be on an epidemic.
I will add that at this point there is no language that indicates they are going after bulk raw nicotine or food flavorings in any way, so DIY'ers will remain completely unaffected. Then again your average teen isn't DIYing their own eliquid.
Hard to say, but consider that the markup for commercial product is already 5-10x over the cost of ingredients, and the informal market will have considerably less overhead. In the end though, the market will charge whatever its customers are willing to pay.
Got to get back to work, but just got a Casaa email which had this tweet quote. (Emphasis bold italic mine)
"If teen e-cig use spikes again in 2019 FDA will revisit the continued marketability of pod based e-cigs as a category. Kids mostly abuse cartridge based systems. Against backdrop of rampant teen use closed systems may have no redeeming public health value. https://t.co/PLepQijbT1 — Scott Gottlieb, M.D. (@SGottliebFDA) March 14, 2019"
"If teen e-cig use spikes again in 2019 FDA will revisit the continued marketability of pod based e-cigs as a category. Kids mostly abuse cartridge based systems. Against backdrop of rampant teen use closed systems may have no redeeming public health value. https://t.co/PLepQijbT1 — Scott Gottlieb, M.D. (@SGottliebFDA) March 14, 2019"
The irony is that the remaining pod options on the market, being tobacco flavored, are the most likely flavors to induce non-smokers to try smoking.
All of the current and proposed rules only seem to cover "ready to vape" juices. It does mention "components" of eliquid "may be regulated" but no specific rules around them. Then again, raw nic base isn't sold in convenience stores with cartoon logos.
CASAA asks for comments from vapers--so if you're on Twitter, or want to join...
Here's the full text of the CASAA email.
Dear Katherine,
If you're on Twitter, then you might know that FDA Commissioner Gottlieb's "twitter game" is on point--or at least his media team is good at what they do.
This morning, Dr. Gottlieb fired off a few tweets in support of yesterday's announcement by FDA that will restrict everyone's access to life-saving vapor products. In particular, this tweet from 6:00 AM suggests that he sees "no redeeming public health value" in closed system/pod-based vapor products. Considering that many of us were first introduced to vaping by trying these simple devices instead of buying yet another pack of cigarettes, his opinion is clearly off base.
If you're on Twitter (or want to join), jump in on the conversation and "ratio" this tweet.
If teen e-cig use spikes again in 2019 FDA will revisit the continued marketability of pod based e-cigs as a category. Kids mostly abuse cartridge based systems. Against backdrop of rampant teen use closed systems may have no redeeming public health value. https://t.co/PLepQijbT1
— Scott Gottlieb, M.D. (@SGottliebFDA) March 14, 2019
Sharing your story, in 285 characters or less, is enough (and keep it clean). If using a closed system is what helped you or someone you love completely switch to vaping, be sure to mention that.
It's time to take the narrative back!
Thank you,
@CASAAmedia Team
Paraphrased:
"If the 2019 data shows another spike in teen use, we're going to be back making new policy in the fall. And one of things we are going have to examine is whether we take the Entire Category of pod based e-Cigarettes off the market.
At some point the youth use of those products becomes so intolerable that they have no redeeming public health value. And we'll just have to sweep the market of those products."
FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb on what's next for e-cigarette companies once he resigns
"If the 2019 data shows another spike in teen use, we're going to be back making new policy in the fall. And one of things we are going have to examine is whether we take the Entire Category of pod based e-Cigarettes off the market.
At some point the youth use of those products becomes so intolerable that they have no redeeming public health value. And we'll just have to sweep the market of those products."
FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb on what's next for e-cigarette companies once he resigns
My husband would be so upset if they get pulled... he's using pods right now, and really likes them best..
This is so weird too. It's the one device that all the components can be controlled (think safety) through government oversight, and they are wanting to pull them from the market?
This is ridiculous..
I honestly do.. I think they just want all of us to die.
They are worried about health care costs if we live so they are trying to remove our ability to quit smoking so we might die faster..
because God knows they don't want any of us off cigarettes.. They are doing everything in their power to prevent us from quitting.
They are worried about health care costs if we live so they are trying to remove our ability to quit smoking so we might die faster..
because God knows they don't want any of us off cigarettes.. They are doing everything in their power to prevent us from quitting.
This is the Bigger Domino that many will Fail to notice. Because if Pod Systems go, what would really be left that would be PMTA-able?
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