Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

ninfreak

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Everything that can be used to vape is considered a tobacco product. It's why a mod has to be labeled as containing nicotine, a tank has nicotine in it, hell the drip tip does too. Gotta love the FDA. A frickin drip tip would need it's own application. Good thing I'm set for life, although I am considered a tobacco manufacturer because I diy.
 

Rossum

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Good thing I'm set for life, although I am considered a tobacco manufacturer because I diy.
No, actually you're not. The FDA has repeatedly admitted it has no jurisdiction over tobacco products that are produced for personal consumption. So as long as you're not engaged in commerce with what you mix, you're safe from them.
 
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Rossum

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I'm trying to figure something out what does it say about mechanical mods.
I don't recall seeing anything in there that explicitly addresses them, but I can't imagine them approving a PMTA for one. Of course someone would first have to submit one first, and I can't see that happening either.
 

Eskie

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There are areas where they do explain that certain guidelines offer concrete guidance in fulfilling what appear to be their requirements. For example, the electrical engineering outline is pretty specific, listing functions like a BMS as part of the build (as it already should be) and acceptance of UL listing as supporting the application.

They do state that a juice does not require a separate PMTA for every nicotine strength it is offered in, they can be covered infer the single app. They also state working off the master ingredient list will simplify the application and allow juice makers to keep their proprietary mixtures confidential. They clearly allude to things like child resistant packaging and clear labeling on warnings regarding nicotine and age restrictions.

It's interesting in the sections on health effects they are allowed to use published literature and not be expected to conduct all those studies themselves. They do want published studies to meet standard criteria, but that's a lot easier to find than doing it yourself. On toxicity they do list compounds they would like to know about whether they are produced, but allow comparisons to other tobacco products to support if it's better, worse, or the same. A good amount of that data is already published and could be used in support of an application.

A PMTA should be easier to complete than modified risk. Those require something in between a drug application and a PMTA. It's also why it costs more and takes more time because they're making a flat out statement this us safer for you. A PMTA doesn't have to prove that, just that it's not worse than current tobacco products

However, that is all interpretation. When approvals and denials are handed down it will become apparent how those guidelines will be used. If done fairly they could be met by the major players. If done biased against the industry then obviously it won't matter what you produce for an application. But at least manufacturers now have some sort of framework to work within , which didn't exist at all prior.
 

puffon

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    Just got this e-mail from the Vapor Technology Association.
    Now we wait for judge Grimms decision:

    AAP v. FDA Update and PMTA Final Guidance

    June 13, 2019

    As we reported on May 16th, 2019, the U.S. District Court for the District of Maryland issued a 54-page decision in American Academy of Physicians, et al. v. FDA, et al., Case No. 18-CV-00883. In its order finding in favor of the plaintiffs, the Court vacated FDA’s August 2017 PMTA Guidance in which the Agency extended the deadline for the filing of PMTAs to August 2022.

    Because the original deadline for PMTA filing had passed, the Court ordered the parties to submit additional briefing on an appropriate remedy. Specifically, plaintiffs had to submit their request within 14 days; FDA had an additional 14 days to respond to plaintiff’s submission; and then the plaintiffs had five days to reply.

    In their submission, the plaintiffs asked the Court to order all PMTA applications to be filed within 120 days. Yesterday, FDA filed its response asserting:
    1. The Court should not go beyond vacating the August 2017 guidance and should instead remand the issue back to FDA to determine the appropriate course of action;
    2. Plaintiffs’ proposed 120-day deadline for the submission of premarket applications could adversely affect the public health and would be administratively infeasible; and
    3. The Court should not order FDA to enforce the premarket review provision—a step that would raise significant separation of powers concerns.
    As part of its rationale, FDA argued, “First and foremost, from the public health perspective, a 120-day deadline would likely lead to a mass market exit of ENDS products.” FDA continues, “Indeed, it is the FDA’s ‘firm belief’ that such an accelerated deadline would ‘create a genuine risk of migration from a potentially less harmful ENDS products back to combustible tobacco products within the population of addicted adult smokers who have completely switched to ENDS. This is a public health outcome that should be avoided if at all possible…” In this context, FDA also noted that, “should the Court order premarket applications to be submitted by a date certain—and it should not …. — under no circumstances should it set that deadline sooner than 10
    months from the date of its decision (with a one-year period for FDA review, without limiting the agency’s discretion to take enforcement action in the meantime).”

    This latter statement needs to be understood in this context and not as the headlines have suggested.

    What’s Next? In five days, plaintiffs will file their reply to FDA’s position. Then, the Court will take the matter under advisement. We anticipate that the Court will enter its Final Order no earlier than mid- to late July of this year. At that time, FDA will have 30 days to file its Notice of Appeal to the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals.

    Given what is at stake, we believe it is highly likely FDA will appeal this decision to the 4th Circuit and also seek a stay during the pendency of the appeal.

    Significantly, on June 11th, 2019, FDA issued its Final PMTA Guidance. The Final Guidance included among other things changes to the HPHC testing requirements. The process outlined remains sophisticated and prohibitively expensive, and it will be extremely difficult for small businesses to satisfy FDA’s requirements. VTA is committed to continue to work collaboratively with regulators to find a reasonable pathway forward for our industry.

    Sincerely,

    VTA
     

    Rossum

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    What about Fasttech
    I would suppose Fasttech doesn't care much about US laws or regulations and will happily sell you whatever you want. But then two questions come up:

    Will the FDA demand that the banking / payment processing industry in the US blacklist vendors like Fastttech?

    Will the FDA coordinate with the US Customs service to hold all packages from vendors like Fasttech for inspection?

    I don't know if either of these things will happen. And of course Chinese companies are known to be quite good at being the moles in a game of whack-a-mole.
     

    Rossum

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    FDA continues, “Indeed, it is the FDA’s ‘firm belief’ that such an accelerated deadline would ‘create a genuine risk of migration from a potentially less harmful ENDS products back to combustible tobacco products within the population of addicted adult smokers who have completely switched to ENDS. This is a public health outcome that should be avoided if at all possible…”
    Wow. They sure seem to be conflicted, don't they? On the one hand, the just released PMTA guidance that ensures very few PMTAs will ever be submitted, while on the other hand they tell a court, "We really don't want to shut down vaping!"

    I dunno what to think anymore.
     

    puffon

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    Wow. They sure seem to be conflicted, don't they? On the one hand, the just released PMTA guidance that ensures very few PMTAs will ever be submitted, while on the other hand they tell a court, "We really don't want to shut down vaping!"

    I dunno what to think anymore.
    Agree.
    I think their end game is to only approve closed system pod devices.
    Easy to regulate and tax.
     

    Rossum

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    Agree.
    I think their end game is to only approve closed system pod devices.
    Easy to regulate and tax.
    That's been the theory for a very long time. But I'm not convinced it's really correct.

    First, I'm not sure how big a consideration "easy to tax" really is for for the FDA.

    Second, I think it's more a question whether anyone with an open (or at least refillable) system/device has and is willing to spend the resources to file an acceptable PMTA. Evolv is believed by many to be a possible player there, with the Lost Vape Orion being the prototype (or quite possibly what Evolv would have submitted if the deadline hadn't gotten kicked down the road). I guess a few of the biggest e-liquid manufacturers might try as well. Even if no open system devices get approved, they will still have a market to re-fill all the existing ones.

    Right now, I only see one closed system, pod device from a company that has both the resources and the desire to get a PMTA, and that's Juul. Once upon a time, we all though the VUSE and the possibly the Mark Ten were specifically designed to meet the PMTA requirements, but they've had their thunder stolen by Juul, and I'm not at all sure that their owners will bother filing for them.

    It's certainly going to be interesting to see what actually happens. :pop:
     

    Brewdawg1181

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    There are areas where they do explain that certain guidelines offer concrete guidance in fulfilling what appear to be their requirements. For example, the electrical engineering outline is pretty specific, listing functions like a BMS as part of the build (as it already should be) and acceptance of UL listing as supporting the application.

    They do state that a juice does not require a separate PMTA for every nicotine strength it is offered in, they can be covered infer the single app. They also state working off the master ingredient list will simplify the application and allow juice makers to keep their proprietary mixtures confidential. They clearly allude to things like child resistant packaging and clear labeling on warnings regarding nicotine and age restrictions.

    It's interesting in the sections on health effects they are allowed to use published literature and not be expected to conduct all those studies themselves. They do want published studies to meet standard criteria, but that's a lot easier to find than doing it yourself. On toxicity they do list compounds they would like to know about whether they are produced, but allow comparisons to other tobacco products to support if it's better, worse, or the same. A good amount of that data is already published and could be used in support of an application.

    A PMTA should be easier to complete than modified risk. Those require something in between a drug application and a PMTA. It's also why it costs more and takes more time because they're making a flat out statement this us safer for you. A PMTA doesn't have to prove that, just that it's not worse than current tobacco products

    However, that is all interpretation. When approvals and denials are handed down it will become apparent how those guidelines will be used. If done fairly they could be met by the major players. If done biased against the industry then obviously it won't matter what you produce for an application. But at least manufacturers now have some sort of framework to work within , which didn't exist at all prior.
    Nice work/summary/intererpretation.
     

    WorksForMe

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    There are areas where they do explain that certain guidelines offer concrete guidance in fulfilling what appear to be their requirements. For example, the electrical engineering outline is pretty specific, listing functions like a BMS as part of the build (as it already should be) and acceptance of UL listing as supporting the application.

    They do state that a juice does not require a separate PMTA for every nicotine strength it is offered in, they can be covered infer the single app. They also state working off the master ingredient list will simplify the application and allow juice makers to keep their proprietary mixtures confidential. They clearly allude to things like child resistant packaging and clear labeling on warnings regarding nicotine and age restrictions.

    It's interesting in the sections on health effects they are allowed to use published literature and not be expected to conduct all those studies themselves. They do want published studies to meet standard criteria, but that's a lot easier to find than doing it yourself. On toxicity they do list compounds they would like to know about whether they are produced, but allow comparisons to other tobacco products to support if it's better, worse, or the same. A good amount of that data is already published and could be used in support of an application.

    A PMTA should be easier to complete than modified risk. Those require something in between a drug application and a PMTA. It's also why it costs more and takes more time because they're making a flat out statement this us safer for you. A PMTA doesn't have to prove that, just that it's not worse than current tobacco products

    However, that is all interpretation. When approvals and denials are handed down it will become apparent how those guidelines will be used. If done fairly they could be met by the major players. If done biased against the industry then obviously it won't matter what you produce for an application. But at least manufacturers now have some sort of framework to work within , which didn't exist at all prior.


    It's interesting that they finally issued this guidance after Judge Grimm's decision in the AAP case. They could be planning to tell the appeals court that they just issued guidelines to manufacturers on how to file a PMTA. That could show that they're working on it, but they need more time.

    .
     

    plumeguy

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    I'm wondering if it would be possible for the FDA to issue preliminary approvals. If a
    company has completed part of the PTMA process on a product, the FDA could issue
    preliminary approvals contingent on completing the rest of the required steps within
    a specified period of time.
     

    Eskie

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    It's interesting that they finally issued this guidance after Judge Grimm's decision in the AAP case. They could be planning to tell the appeals court that they just issued guidelines to manufacturers on how to file a PMTA. That could show that they're working on it, but they need more time.

    .

    It is interesting, it was probably done but they released it before their planned date. Given the issues extend well beyond vaping for the FDA on this appeal, I expect them to pull out the big guns to fight that ruling. Which is fine by me.

    I'm wondering if it would be possible for the FDA to issue preliminary approvals. If a
    company has completed part of the PTMA process on a product, the FDA could issue
    preliminary approvals contingent on completing the rest of the required steps within
    a specified period of time.

    I believe based on the original deeming regulations your product may remain on the market for an additional 12 months while the application is under review, unless you get denial before 12 months, in which case you have to pull it for the marketplace. I don't recall if that's mentioned in this latest guidance document.
     

    Rossum

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    I believe based on the original deeming regulations your product may remain on the market for an additional 12 months while the application is under review, unless you get denial before 12 months, in which case you have to pull it for the marketplace.
    That's correct. Moreover, the Tobacco Control Act, which is what gives the FDA the power to "regulate" tobacco products at all, allows them only six months to complete a PMTA review. Yet somehow, it took them over two years to review the PMTA for IQOS, and that was during a time when they weren't exactly flooded with PMTAs to look at.

    My guess is that any vapor product already on the market prior to a PMTA filing will be allowed to remain on the market during its PMTA review, no matter how long that review takes.

    But I still doubt there will be very many PMTAs filed.
     

    Eskie

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    The question will be who rides the coattails. If say a given juice is approved, will you be able to follow with an SE app, as they're very close to the sane except maybe a few differences in flavor but still all off the master ingredient list? Same with hardware. If the internals are the same and the differences cosmetic, how easily can you get an SE through. This will matter inside a Company's line of products as well. Let's face it, someone like Smok has the same internals for a line of mods with only cosmetic differences. Once one is approved, will that serve as the basis for faster approvals? By the rules of an SE application it should.
     

    Rossum

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    The question will be who rides the coattails. If say a given juice is approved, will you be able to follow with an SE app, as they're very close to the sane except maybe a few differences in flavor but still all off the master ingredient list? Same with hardware. If the internals are the same and the differences cosmetic, how easily can you get an SE through. This will matter inside a Company's line of products as well. Let's face it, someone like Smok has the same internals for a line of mods with only cosmetic differences. Once one is approved, will that serve as the basis for faster approvals? By the rules of an SE application it should.
    I'm not sure. As of a few years ago, there was a huge backlog of over 3000 SE applications for other tobacco products. Most of them have been in their queue since 2011.
     

    englishmick

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    I'm not sure. As of a few years ago, there was a huge backlog of over 3000 SE applications for other tobacco products. Most of them have been in their queue since 2011.

    I wonder what the reason for that is. Maybe they are just dragging their feet. Or they haven't quite decided how to deal with the applications. Maybe they have set up an application system that would require 20 times the staffing they have available to do the processing. Maybe someone in the political chain of command has told them to slow walk it while they negotiate with their corporate donors.
     

    Eskie

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    I was thinking about this quote from Puffon

    "As part of its rationale, FDA argued, “First and foremost, from the public health perspective, a 120-day deadline would likely lead to a mass market exit of ENDS products.” FDA continues, “Indeed, it is the FDA’s ‘firm belief’ that such an accelerated deadline would ‘create a genuine risk of migration from a potentially less harmful ENDS products back to combustible tobacco products within the population of addicted adult smokers who have completely switched to ENDS. This is a public health outcome that should be avoided if at all possible…"

    That statement offered in litigation creates a wedge for any future litigation if approvals are never or barely ever granted. They've cone out in court to say these things need to be on the market and any arbitrary steps that would eliminate them is not in the public interest. It's tough to state that to a federal court and then knock everything off the market.

    I think a large biz with the money for a PMTA will file on eliquid. Can you imagine the profits if you are only 1 of 3 vendors for eliquid? You would make millions as a lot of people don't want to diy.

    I can see a good business model for consulting and guidance firms to offer services to small and medium sized vape companies to walk them through the approval process. Especially for juices it should mostly be boilerplate with fill in the blanks specific to the company's facilities for manufacture and individual juice lines. Those types of regulatory consultants already exist for drug approval assistance especially for smaller generic manufacturers so why not here?
     

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