Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
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America....
I do not disagree with, "Conventional wisdom would point to their focus being on getting tobacco sales to increase rather than decline, to get the Master Settlement Agreement money back to the states where it once was ten years ago." I find it horrifying but if I look at their actions rather that their glorious rhetoric I find the conclusion inescapable.
They are taxing e-cigs, Bad. And frankly, we always knew that it would happen. I'd rather pay taxes than have e-cigs banned altogether.
Vaping Craze Prompts New State Taxes
“States definitely view e-cigarette taxes as low-hanging fruit,” said Janelle Cammenga, policy analyst at the Tax Foundation. “Because some people view vaping as a public nuisance and because vapor products contain nicotine, an addictive substance, legislators can pitch the tax as a sin tax meant to reduce consumption.”
It's a declared "Smoke free future". That does NOT mean a vape-free future. It means SMOKE free.
They're going after the cigs. So no, I can't agree with baditude on that one. It's not about cig revenue (although they don't mind that short term). It's about eliminating smoking LONG TERM.
So they'll tax the e-cigs. And they're going to start screwing with the cigs.
And BT will take over the nic market somehow. Even if they supply nic to vape shops.
I like NN's response. I hope they (and others) survive all this, but I'm wondering. The shops, IDK yet, but that indication that the Trump-group might allow vape shops to stay open at least until after the election cycle is promising.
But I'm dubious about that long term too, if BT gets its way.
They're going after the cigs. So no, I can't agree with baditude on that one. It's not about cig revenue (although they don't mind that short term). It's about eliminating smoking LONG TERM.
So they'll tax the e-cigs. And they're going to start screwing with the cigs.
And BT will take over the nic market somehow. Even if they supply nic to vape shops.
I like NN's response. I hope they (and others) survive all this, but I'm wondering. The shops, IDK yet, but that indication that the Trump-group might allow vape shops to stay open at least until after the election cycle is promising.
But I'm dubious about that long term too, if BT gets its way.
Keeping vape shops open is for about six months, after which they'll have nothing to sell.
Small gesture but if it helps some businesses wind down in a less destructive way, I'm glad.
Small gesture but if it helps some businesses wind down in a less destructive way, I'm glad.
Most policy makers see vaping as being the same thing as smoking. Just like that one congresswoman said in the House, Means, & Ways testamonies, "You're still smoking".It's a declared "Smoke free future". That does NOT mean a vape-free future. It means SMOKE free.
They're going after the cigs. So no, I can't agree with baditude on that one. It's not about cig revenue (although they don't mind that short term). It's about eliminating smoking LONG TERM.
So they'll tax the e-cigs. And they're going to start screwing with the cigs.
And BT will take over the nic market somehow. Even if they supply nic to vape shops.
I like NN's response. I hope they (and others) survive all this, but I'm wondering. The shops, IDK yet, but that indication that the Trump-group might allow vape shops to stay open at least until after the election cycle is promising.
Even that so-called doctor on that same committee said something about the UK's medical studies saying that vaping is 95% safer than smoking essentually called it "junk science".
They can't see that just because it "looks like smoke" and has nicotine that vaping could possibly be safer than smoking. They are ignorant to the facts, and aren't willing to learn the truth. Their minds were already made up before they heard any testamonies. They have no concept of the term, "harm reduction".
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I think it could go either way. But if that huge tax gets passed, the FDA, I mean the flying spaghetti monster is going to roll over and its gooey tentacles will enact whatever its masters wish for it to enact.
The FDA is "independent" like um, any other agency that falls under the government. I think they will just deem everything if asked.
I think the amount of tax that will be levied on a harm reduction product SUCKS. However, I think there will be vapers who will continue to vape, and perhaps cloud chucking becomes less prevalent (unless vape stores start charging MORE for higher nic liquid which they really have not had to DO before, but well, we shall see.
Too soon to call. But, if the FDA is told "We get taxes do what we say" then they will DO it, there is no question in my mind about THAT.
They'd be smarter to tax than ban. Do you know how expensive enforcing a ban is? When I think about what has been spent on the "drug war" I just feel sick.
Anna
The FDA is "independent" like um, any other agency that falls under the government. I think they will just deem everything if asked.
I think the amount of tax that will be levied on a harm reduction product SUCKS. However, I think there will be vapers who will continue to vape, and perhaps cloud chucking becomes less prevalent (unless vape stores start charging MORE for higher nic liquid which they really have not had to DO before, but well, we shall see.
Too soon to call. But, if the FDA is told "We get taxes do what we say" then they will DO it, there is no question in my mind about THAT.
They'd be smarter to tax than ban. Do you know how expensive enforcing a ban is? When I think about what has been spent on the "drug war" I just feel sick.
Anna
Yeah, but I think it's agenda FUELED BY BT (and Tlaib is an outlier).
You think it's anti-vaping bias.
OK.
But I'll remind you that BT itself (the ones that actually make the cigs) are the ones that have declared the "Smoke Free future". So there's that.
And if Gov is in bed with that, or even just adjusting themselves to the notion, they'll tax the e-cigs while the combustible cigs die out (terrible turn of phrase there, eh?).
She's a special case, Bad.
Not all of them. Not even most of them... That's what makes me so mad. They just have their stupid agendas, party line, whatever, and no guts whatsoever. Politicians. Anyway, that's how I see that.
YMMV--as always.
And if you believe BT really means that, then you're as clueless as the politicians are. (Love you, AttyPops)
Loans that were taken out on expected MSA tobacco money are overdue and the states don't have the money to pay them off. Their only recourse is to help BT profits return to where they were 10 years ago. The MSA is forever, so cigarettes can't be banned.
Assuming this actually happens, it's a good sign.
The exact situation after May 11th depends on how motivated the FedGov is to enforce its regulations. Take MJ as an example. Every "dispensary" in states where it's legal is engaging felony crimes from the FedGov's perspective, yet there is no enforcement against them. I now have a small glimmer of hope that this administration will tell the FDA to treat vape shops the same way.
That's the states (and only some of them). So sure, they'll switch to a different revenue source...taxing e-juice. That's the ALTERNATIVE RESOURCE. We still have this fed-level thing going on too.
And yes, BT has NO PROBLEM changing tobacco. They've diversified into many markets. Changed names. Declared the SFF. And next, as long as they own the nic market (which is what is being implemented) they don't care that the delivery mechanism is electronic vs combustible. Hell, an addict is an addict to them. And it cuts WAY into BP's NRT revenue. And they can act all innocent about not knowing the dangers all over again.
Hell, watch what happens next. They can (after driving the competition out of business) sue to remove any MSA costs on the grounds that harm hasn't been proven yet.
It was my understanding is that the MSA payments don't depend on BT profits, but rather on the quantity of cigarettes sold?
Well, true that, but the BT has seen the writing on the wall... They see the stats and know better than you and me that smoking rates are declining all over the world. Of course they don't WANT a smokeless future, but they are working on Plan B. First they tried to push for vaping bans, while at the same entering and/or trying to take over the vaping markets.
Of course, their timing is not always perfect. I think they are as confused as the rest of us. Altria's investment in Juul had the worst possible timing — and wound up costing it $110 million a week amid a mass vaping crackdown | Markets Insider
On the other hand, iQos was already approved by the FDA.
FDA clears Philip Morris' iQOS, Altria plans to start selling heated tobacco device in the US this summer
I think one difference between the FDA and most agencies is the extent to which it is directly financed by Pharma rather than taxes. I'm not sure what effect that has on how they are operating right now. Their core business is drugs so unless they have plans for nicotine maybe they just decided to sit this one out. Or maybe what everyone is doing right now is all part of Pharma's plan.
We might never know. But we should at least know something this week about flavors.
YUIP. The FDA is pretty tied up in BIg Pharma. Unless they got actual money from the government to go after vaping, I am not sure how effective they might be.
Also, I really don't think they are interested. They like drugs not vaping products. They understand DRUGS not vaping products.
It is definitely INTERESTING and I think 6 months or so will tell the feds if they can make enough money off vaping ONCE TAXED to let it live. If not, they will tell the FDA to "release the hounds," or the Great Spaghetti muster to unleash its gooey tentacles.
This is a test. Buy some crap from your local vape shop, after the tax. I KNOW!!! Do it. Do it for the vapers to come.
Because we can fight taxes, vape shops will set up on Federal reservations and even have nic delivered to that address, DO IT.
Anna
Also, I really don't think they are interested. They like drugs not vaping products. They understand DRUGS not vaping products.
It is definitely INTERESTING and I think 6 months or so will tell the feds if they can make enough money off vaping ONCE TAXED to let it live. If not, they will tell the FDA to "release the hounds," or the Great Spaghetti muster to unleash its gooey tentacles.
This is a test. Buy some crap from your local vape shop, after the tax. I KNOW!!! Do it. Do it for the vapers to come.
Because we can fight taxes, vape shops will set up on Federal reservations and even have nic delivered to that address, DO IT.
Anna
Here's the breakdown of funding:
- The FDA budget for FY 2019 is $5.7 billion.
- About 55 percent, or $3.1 billion, of FDA’s budget is provided by federal budget authorization. The remaining 45 percent, or $2.6 billion, is paid for by industry user fees.
Interesting, I would have guessed it was more than that.
There also seems to be frequent movement of people between jobs in Pharma, Pharma lobbying groups, and the FDA. Not surprising I suppose, similar skill sets. It makes it hard for me to trust their motives though.
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