Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[AttyPops]

So what would you Bring Me?

And Why Doesn't a Chip Paired Pod/mod reduce the Likelihood of Adulteration?

"reduce the likelihood" maybe, slightly, as you'd have to have device specific make/model to sell on the street. But there isn't a universal standard for pods right now anyway. There IS a standard for 510 connectors...and maybe that's part of the strategy to eliminate it.

But right now, I'm betting you can find juul-specific adulterated stuff on the street. With whatever "stuff" you want to not-discuss.

It's a corporate device lock-down. Like printer cartridges. Sell the printer at low cost, hit them on the replacement stuff. Lock it down. And even then, they can often be refilled.

 

[mikepetro]

Back in the old days a 74xx chip could be jumpered to turn functions on and off. But, that was a time when a chip was more a discrete product that had to be combined with a number of other chips to render a working and functional device.

Chips could be potted or molded into the plastic, making it difficult to access without destroying the pod. You could add a device sandwiched between the mod and the pod that intercepts the comms, ie a man in the middle attack, but you would have to defeat the encryption. The manufacturer's goal would not be to make it impossible, just to make it non cost effective.

 

[AttyPops]

probably they advertise it on some US channels only for now.

Sorry, didn't look at the "UK"....

Yeah, you guys are in a different situation. We're in full goose corporate take over with side dishes of B.S. all over the place.

YOUR marketplace is very different, and you should consider yourself lucky in that regard right now.

 

[englishmick]

A chip in the pod that mates only to the approved battery, and also keeps count of puffs. The maximum puff count is estimated at just slightly over the theoretical # of puffs that the given pod can hold when factory filled. Once that maximum count is reached, the pod fails to fire.

It wouldnt stop someone from draining a factory pod and refilling it, but it would limit the potential for reuse. Essentially making it non cost effective to user to do so. Unless the the user is converting it to a Dank like product, but even then not very cost effective.

With appropriate encryption and Bluetooth pairing (or similar schema) counterfeiting would also be minimized.

They are putting that kind of technology into some printer ink cartridges to stop refilling. Apparently you can buy devices that let you hack into some of those chips and reset them. But the market for Juul would be many magnitudes larger than for any ink cartridge and I have a feeling they could make it tamper proof if they needed to. Maybe someone will come up with a clone containing a chip that could fool the mod. That battle will never end. But if Juul goes that way they are likely to stay ahead of the competition.

 

[AttyPops]

Here's a link for what we're seeing on cable 'n stuff.

VUSE Alto TV Commercial, 'Innovation'

(And I still think they're going to after the cigs. Note the 'smoking changed" theme)

 

[zoiDman]

A chip in the pod that mates only to the approved battery, and also keeps count of puffs. The maximum puff count is estimated at just slightly over the theoretical # of puffs that the given pod can hold when factory filled. Once that maximum count is reached, the pod fails to fire.

It wouldnt stop someone from draining a factory pod and refilling it, but it would limit the potential for reuse. Essentially making it non cost effective to user to do so. Unless the the user is converting it to a Dank like product, but even then not very cost effective.

With appropriate encryption and Bluetooth pairing (or similar schema) counterfeiting would also be minimized.

A "Smart-Cart" also provides tractability to Point-of-Sale. And would Bolster your PMTA argument that you are taking Significant Steps to combat "Social Sources" as a way for Minors to obtain Tobacco Products.

We kinda Hashed some of this out in another thread...

I'm Not talking about some Wink-Wink Nod "Closed System" where all you have to do is go to the ECF or YouTube to find out how to Refill it.

I'm talking about Ultrasonic Welded, Jump thru the Highest Hoop like your PMTA Depends on it (because it Does), Satisfy Mitch Zeller type Unadaulterable Closed System.

Same with Mod and Pod Chip pair. This Isn't going to be some Clear Text EPROM that has no Fall Pack if it isn't Paired with the Mod. It's gunna be 256bit AES Government Grade, take IBM Watsom a Week to Crack it, type stuff.

Because Once Again, your PMTA is going to Depend on it.

LOL

I have 100% Confidence that when the Full Power of BT's Technology Army is exerted into making something Closed, it is Going to Stay Closed to 99.999% of those who used it.

 

[AttyPops]

Unless the chips contain a chemical sensor, you're not going to stop adulteration. You do impact the cost of doing it, sure. But when "legit" sources of, say, CBT are 3x your costs, you have wiggle room. Then there's probably stuff that's never legit.

 

[zoiDman]

"reduce the likelihood" maybe, slightly, as you'd have to have device specific make/model to sell on the street. But there isn't a universal standard for pods right now anyway. There IS a standard for 510 connectors...and maybe that's part of the strategy to eliminate it.

But right now, I'm betting you can find Juul-specific adulterated stuff on the street. With whatever "stuff" you want to not-discuss.

It's a corporate device lock-down. Like printer cartridges. Sell the printer at low cost, hit them on the replacement stuff. Lock it down. And even then, they can often be refilled.

Just say'n you had better go back to Santa's workshop and get cracking. Because if you can't Bring the FDA something that will convince the Zellerite's that your e-Cigarette isn't going to be the Next Fad with Teens, or that all you have to do is go to the ECF to learn how to Re-Fill it, I think all that Money you just spent on a PMTA just went Down the Drain.

Because you are Not dealing with a Bunch of Air Head aids who Don't even know what Authority the FDA has.

 

[AttyPops]

Oh, yeah, I think they could try to B.S. this just like they B.S. everything else. Sure. And the FDA is a good tool. Sure.

Been complaining about the oligarchy using government for its own ends, for years.

I just don't think it will FUNCTION as intended from the actually-reducing-adulteration standpoint. From the drive the others out of business standpoint, sure.

But cycling all the way back, IDK that the PMTA REQUIRES such a device to get approval.

 

[zoiDman]

Unless the chips contain a chemical sensor, you're not going to stop adulteration. You do impact the cost of doing it, sure. But when "legit" sources of, say, CBT are 3x your costs, you have wiggle room. Then there's probably stuff that's never legit.

If the Pod is Paired with a Mod, and Only Works with that Mod, then the Only person who can Adulterate the Pod is the person who has the Mod.

And people who want to sell Whatever on the street in Bootleg Pods just had their Lives become Much Harder.

This is something that the FDA would Like to See.

 

[AttyPops]

If the Pod is Paired with a Mod, and Only Works with that Mod, then the Only person who can Adulterate the Pod is the person who has the Mod.

And people who want to sell Whatever on the street in Bootleg Pods just had their Lives become Much Harder.

This is something that the FDA would Like to See.

You mean a unique ID for each device type of thing???????????!?!?!?!?!????? Or the device registering the unique ID for the PODS?

Is that even being proposed? Do they scan the device and the pods at the point of sale?

That's interesting. OK, I take much back. IF that's the case. But wow, costs.... PITA.....
I'd be shocked that they're doing that. $$$$$

I suppose they could even do that with RFID tags.
Hmmm.......

OK, you might have me on that one...IF you can show they're doing that. "Activating" the device for the pods.

EDIT: Someone would come up with a hack to register them on the street.....

Next well have break ins to steal the authorization device/scanner.....

 

[Iron Molly]

You mean a unique ID for each device type of thing???????????!?!?!?!?!????? Or the device registering the unique ID for the PODS?

Is that even being proposed? Do they scan the device and the pods at the point of sale?

That's interesting. OK, I take much back. IF that's the case. But wow, costs.... PITA.....
I'd be shocked that they're doing that. $$$$$

I suppose they could even do that with RFID tags.
Hmmm.......

OK, you might have me on that one...IF you can show they're doing that. "Activating" the device for the pods.

EDIT: Someone would come up with a hack to register them on the street.....

Next well have break ins to steal the authorization device/scanner.....

If you build it, someone will hack it. Especially if there is financial incentive to do so.

 

[zoiDman]

...

But cycling all the way back, IDK that the PMTA REQUIRES such a device to get approval.

I Don't Know why you keep Asking this Question?

The are No Requirements what so ever for Submitting a PMTA. Just like there are No Requirements for PMTA Approval/Disapproval.

If you want to Submit a PMTA for a 510 Open System Atty/Mod, the FDA Doesn't Care.

 

[AttyPops]

If you build it, someone will hack it. Especially if there is financial incentive to do so.

It's even worse. I mean....

Envision a user trying to borrow a pod from his wife (he's out) and he puts it in his device to go to work, and it blinks "not authorized error". So he throws it out the window, runs over it with the pickup truck, goes and buys a pack of smokes.....

 

[AttyPops]

I Don't Know why you keep Asking this Question?

The are No Requirements what so ever for Submitting a PMTA. Just like there are No Requirements for PMTA Approval/Disapproval.

If you want to Submit a PMTA for a 510 Open System Atty/Mod, the FDA Doesn't Care.

I'm asking because of YOUR oligarchy point.

The end-game would be to REQUIRE such, by fed regulation, such that you'd drive the open-systems out of business under the guise of "protects against adulteration".

Otherwise, it still ends up being a proprietary hack a la printer carts.

Just say'n you had better go back to Santa's workshop and get cracking. Because if you can't Bring the FDA something that will convince the Zellerite's that your e-Cigarette isn't going to be the Next Fad with Teens, or that all you have to do is go to the ECF to learn how to Re-Fill it, I think all that Money you just spent on a PMTA just went Down the Drain.

Because you are Not dealing with a Bunch of Air Head aids who Don't even know what Authority the FDA has.

EDIT: And that includes the case of it was a defacto-standard for approval, which may be what you're saying here.

 

[zoiDman]

...

The end-game would be to REQUIRE such, by fed regulation, such that you'd drive the open-systems out of business under the guise of "protects against adulteration".

...

Why would I want to do Something like that?

Wouldn't I have to go thru a Formal Rule making process? And then wouldn't it place a giant Litigation Target on my Back? Why wouldn't you leave it to the Imaginary Bar that OEM's have to jump over?

Open System are on the Green Mile right now. Why do I need a Statutory Regulation to do what is Already Done?

 

[AttyPops]

IDK, what does this mean?

Because if you can't Bring the FDA something that will convince the Zellerite's that your e-Cigarette isn't going to be the Next Fad with Teens, or that all you have to do is go to the ECF to learn how to Re-Fill it, I think all that Money you just spent on a PMTA just went Down the Drain.

Sounds like you're saying "better do something like this, or it won't get approved" paraphrased. Which makes it a defacto-requirement.

I'm responding to that, from you.

 

[Rossum]

I have a feeling they could make it tamper proof if they needed to.

There is no such thing as tamper-proof in the long run.

If you build it, someone will hack it. Especially if there is financial incentive to do so.

Yep. My company's current product just got cracked (cloned) within the last few months, and we put a lot of effort into preventing that. All you can do is make it more difficult and slow them down. In this case, it took them 2-1/2 years.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Sounds like you're saying "better do something like this, or it won't get approved" paraphrased. Which makes it a defacto-requirement.

...

I Don't think there is much Debate about it?

You gotta Remember, a PMTA was Never conceived as was way to show FDA "Approval" of a Tobacco Product. Or even a type of "Fee" that an OEM needed to pay so they could be in the Market.

The Entire PMTA Process was designed to keep tobacco products Out of the Tobacco Market.

And when you start to Think of it from that Perspective, the Entire Convoluted and Intentionally Vague process starts to make sense.

 

[AvaOrchid]

Yeah, ban flavored vapes. In the meantime, new headlines:

Fentanyl found in unregulated vape cartridges in other states. ‘Just a matter of time’ before it comes to Utah


Are they all blind? Stupid? Unwilling to admit what's really going on? How is banning
innocuous nicotine eliquids, which have been used by millions worldwide for over 12 years without ever causing a death or illness, going to help with this current health crisis brought on by tainted illicit cartridges?

Sometimes I just want to scream.........

The thing that really gets me is if they proceed as they've been giving the impression that they will things like that are going to become more common. Retail stores don't want to make people sick even if they only care about money making people sick ruins your customer base and can get you in some pretty bad situations with gov. In general drug dealers don't care about that sort of thing that much. And even though I haven't seen anything indicating that they're planning at least at the moment to make e-cigarette use a crime people are still less likely to report feeling sick after they bought Street substances. So they're basically creating an environment where people are going to die and nobody's going to care.. because people like to judge others and basically say well if they hadn't been doing something wrong they wouldn't have gotten sick so they're creating The Perfect Storm of a situation where people are getting majorly sick from buying the equivalent of nicotine drugs off the street