Diketones-free vendors

[Mazinny]

Been looking at MOV, but two of the flavors that I'm most interested in, particularly Southern Gentleman, are not offered in an 1.2 nic. It goes from 1.8 to .9. Others are in 1.2, so I don't know if it's per flavor or they are just out of 1.2 nic for the ones I might like. No real sampler pack either.
I got a sampler from Mr. eliquid, which is on the AEMSA web site, and hope they will work out, but they don't have a cert.
My go to up until now, Johnson's Creek - doesn't say anything about any of it, plus it's an atty clogger.

Southern Gentleman is a NET. They have five NETs and they all are 18 9 0 mg/ml nic. The rest of their line-up changed to the more standard 18 12 6 0 model earlier this year, but not the NETs. Southern Gentleman is just as gunky as Johnson Creek tobacco's if not more. Most NETs are. You might want to try their synthetic tobaccos if gunk is an issue. NEts are better suited for those who build their own coils and re-wick and dry-burn often.

 

[2buildawall]

Great thread....subscribed. Thanks for the information.

 

[vlahmapoutras]

Exactly, the flavor manufacturers are the ones to test their products. Most of these companies are established for well over 30 years. They can afford to test their batches and pass the cost along as you pointed out. Not to mention as has already been pointed out, it is in their interest to have a clean safe product. But you wouldn't walk into a 7/11 and demand a certificate of analysis on their bottled water. That's avion's problem not the franchise store owner. Same way you can't expect a vendor to certify a product that is passed down the line from a company that they cannot hold any sway over. To reiterate the Flavoring company is responsible for providing a safe product not the vendor. If you want to get technical about who holds blame then you are welcome to do so but in the end vendors are pretty much at the whim of the larger flavoring companies who have much larger resources.

There is a big BUT here.The final product is the one that reaches the consumer so it's the one that should be tested. Let's assume the flavoring company from which a vendor buys flavors certifies the absence of diketones. How can the consumer know that the e-liquid maker hasn't used extra ingredients? Which flavoring company will guarantee the final product of someone who buys flavors from them?What if the custard flavor that leaves the flavoring company is safe but until it reaches the liquid consumer has been tempered with? That can only work in the case of DIY where you have control over the ingredients used.

 

[uab9253]

Southern Gentleman is a NET. They have five NETs and they all are 18 9 0 mg/ml nic. The rest of their line-up changed to the more standard 18 12 6 0 model earlier this year, but not the NETs. Southern Gentleman is just as gunky as Johnson Creek tobacco's if not more. Most NETs are. You might want to try their synthetic tobaccos if gunk is an issue. NEts are better suited for those who build their own coils and re-wick and dry-burn often.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I may still try some of their non-NET's but the flavor descriptions are not as appealing. THANKS!

 

[Tangaroav]

Been looking at MOV, but two of the flavors that I'm most interested in, particularly Southern Gentleman, are not offered in an 1.2 nic. It goes from 1.8 to .9. Others are in 1.2, so I don't know if it's per flavor or they are just out of 1.2 nic for the ones I might like. No real sampler pack either.
I got a sampler from Mr. Eliquid, which is on the AEMSA web site, and hope they will work out, but they don't have a cert.
My go to up until now, Johnson's Creek - doesn't say anything about any of it, plus it's an atty clogger.

Well you could always buy one of each, (1.8 + .9) /2 = 1.35 close enough ? but then you have a bigger volume to buy

 

[kkay59]

I love what MOV stands for. But their NET's are just too gunky for me to fool with. I bought 3 of them. I only liked one of the 3. I loved the Pendragon. But I can't even get hardly any vaped before it is gunking, and the taste goes right with it. If they could clean it up a little, it would be a game changer for me. They have terrific ideals on running a business. I loved everything but the supreme gunk.

 

[Redhotchewy]

There is a big BUT here.The final product is the one that reaches the consumer so it's the one that should be tested. Let's assume the flavoring company from which a vendor buys flavors certifies the absence of diketones. How can the consumer know that the e-liquid maker hasn't used extra ingredients? Which flavoring company will guarantee the final product of someone who buys flavors from them?What if the custard flavor that leaves the flavoring company is safe but until it reaches the liquid consumer has been tempered with? That can only work in the case of DIY where you have control over the ingredients used.

Well that IS actually where AEMSA comes into the mix. They investigate their member's facilities and are requiring chain of custody providence. So if there are issues on that level it should be able to be investigated and fixed. I don't really see where that line of thinking comes into play though since that isn't something that has been reported or found. That's kind of on the level of paranoia. I'm not being offensive I'm just pointing out that tampering with after market formulas has yet to be pointed out as an issue. That really would raise a whole other level of concerns about the vendors you frequent. For instance coca cola gets its phosphoric acid from PotashCorp to add to their products. Potash is responsible for certifying the food quality of the phosphoric acid. Coca Cola is not responsible if there is a problem with their phosphoric acid because there is documented evidence that they purchase it from a certified provider. That's just how it works in the commercial chemistry world.

 

[Mazinny]

I love what MOV stands for. But their NET's are just too gunky for me to fool with. I bought 3 of them. I only liked one of the 3. I loved the Pendragon. But I can't even get hardly any vaped before it is gunking, and the taste goes right with it. If they could clean it up a little, it would be a game changer for me. They have terrific ideals on running a business. I loved everything but the supreme gunk.

Southern Gentleman is one of my favorite juices ( Pendragon and Sunday Morning are decent too ) and i just learn to deal with the gunk. Build a non-contact coil in a wider i.d., make sure the kgd is as straight and linear as possible, and re-wick every two to three ml's. But idf you don't have experience with NETs, the rest of their line-up is very clean burning. Their NETs are only five out of fifty or so flavors.

 

[Tangaroav]

ok, what does idf and kgd mean ?

 

[vlahmapoutras]

Well that IS actually where AEMSA comes into the mix. They investigate their member's facilities and are requiring chain of custody providence. So if there are issues on that level it should be able to be investigated and fixed. I don't really see where that line of thinking comes into play though since that isn't something that has been reported or found. That's kind of on the level of paranoia. I'm not being offensive I'm just pointing out that tampering with after market formulas has yet to be pointed out as an issue. That really would raise a whole other level of concerns about the vendors you frequent. For instance coca cola gets its phosphoric acid from PotashCorp to add to their products. Potash is responsible for certifying the food quality of the phosphoric acid. Coca Cola is not responsible if there is a problem with their phosphoric acid because there is documented evidence that they purchase it from a certified provider. That's just how it works in the commercial chemistry world.

You didn't understand what I am saying.The Coca-cola example is irrelevant to say the least.You are comparing the food/drink market where there are established standards for years and a market that has none!!!And the commercial chemistry world has no similarity with e-liquid production!
If Coca-cola was using only water and phosphoric acid and mentioned that their water is certified by a company X and the phosphoric acid by a company Y then those certificates are not enough to guarantee that the final product doesn't contain harmful substances.That's why the final product is tested and approved or not and they are not based on what each providing company claims.
My point is that the final product can contain diketones even if the flavoring used doesn't because the maker is not restricted by any laws/regulations.I have the ability as an e-liquid manufacturer to do as I wish since there are no standards.Simple!

 

[fredrikstad]

NicQuid claims on the website that they don't use diacetyl or custard notes.

NicQuid® e-liquids are made from the finest GRAS, food grade artificial and natural flavorings. What you will never find in our e-liquid products are artificial dyes, artificial colors, added alcohol, or added water. To that, NicQuid® e-liquids do not contain diacetyl or ‘custard notes’. We start and end with the best.

I couldn't find anywhere on their website info about testing their e-liquids for diacetyl or ‘custard notes’ by a lab.This means most probably that they are based on the information they have from their flavorings provider for whom they say nothing.So not sure about their claim since there is no proof.
Thanks for the addition though

The way it is now, almost everyone can make some juice from their kitchen, put it in some nice bottles, provide them with an label, say som great cryptical things about the taste, claim on FB that they are free of this and that, price them high,make them high VG and low nicotin........Woila, you have a "high end" juice....
It`s to easy. This community needs some control.

 

[fredrikstad]

You guys keep saying stuff like this as if eliquid mixers were working out of their spare bedroom or something and can't *afford* regular business costs.

You do realize that many of these companies are pushing well over 20,000 bottles of eliquid out the door a month, right? (sometimes, that number is actually per week!)

They can afford a one time cost of $9,000 to test 45 juices. Most likely it's only 20 for most though.

This isn't 2011 anymore. Vaping is big business.

$200 to test your top most popular juices? that's chump change. If a biz can't afford that, expect them to fold because that would be a very financially unhealthy company...... who should switch to selling beanie babies or widgets on Ebay or soemthing.....




they don't. They have a standard recipe, so once tested they know the results.

However, I imagine a really accountable company would WANT to repeat those tests every so often, on a few batches, just to make sure, since they are dependent on their flavoring company somewhat.

No really successful startup "rest on their laurels" after all

I agreed with everything you say here. But Pip as an example,claimed that she tested all her juice line, but it wasn`t true if I remeber right? And she deleted post on here FB site, where people confronted here about it.
And many of those reviewers, have their own juice line, even though they say that reviewing take all their time. I suspect many of them just sell theyr names, because those names are recognized in the vaping comunity. But this is me guessing. Take it with a grain of salt

 

[fredrikstad]

Let's face it, either the e-juice industry will rid itself of diketones or the FDA will force them to do it. That is just simple logic. As was reported on the Click Bang show, tobacco companies are prohibited by the FDA to add diacetyl to cigarettes. It will be the same for e-liquids.

As we have seen with the Suicide bunny fiasco, vendors are all too often, are not a reliable source for the protection of the consumers.

This is still a so caled "high end" high price liuquid in Europe. Has she lost many customers in the US?

 

[fredrikstad]

High levels of diacetyl and ap found in her juices particularly the beloved mothers milk.

And she denid it on here FB page.

 

[fredrikstad]

What bothers me is that ECF has thousands of members and people visiting every day; even more people buy and inhale e-liquids daily.If we could act collectively (like in several cases regarding laws against vaping) and demand that diketones (which are scientifically proven to be dangerous when inhaled) are not included in e-liquids then the makers will follow.I truly believe that we have as a group more power than any FDA and we can establish some regulations on a product we consume.How? A simple solution is boycotting the makers that use diketones. And even before that boycott the makers that don't mention their ingredients on the bottle. Too expensive for some makers? Either find a way to deal with it or else stop producing something that you cannot support it. When dealing with chemicals destined for inhalation you need to have a professional in your team who knows what he is dealing with.How many producers have one? Few. They only know what flavor a chemical can resemble and besides that noting...nothing.
Can't people see the similarity with cigarettes where the packet only mentions nicotine,carbon monoxide and tar (like in e-liquids with PG,VG,nicotine)? Where are all the other ingredients? And don't tell me that they don't want to give away their secret recipes.What do you mean flavoring?Write it on the bottle.You don't? Ok,I don't buy from you. We are so against smoking, we spend hours talking about the devices we use, the coil building, batteries etc. and when it comes to e-liquid we only care (the majority I mean) for their taste.Exactly the same that the average smoker does; he cares for the satisfaction and not for the content.
And why should we only focus on the fact that vaping is safer than smoking and not on the fact that as consumers we demand to know what we inhale? You don't care about health issues? Then care for respect and responsibility by the producer towards the customers, aka US.
Anyhow, just some thoughts.

I second this. Very good points.

 

[fredrikstad]

Thanks. I missed their mission statement. I am on their list though. I thought they were just mainly together to warn people, and keep them updated on legislation, aka the legal side of vaping. I am completely against taxing and regulation. It is not a cigarette. It is vapor. These politicians love taxes. They even want to tax the freaking internet, and the air you exhale. If you let them get a toe in the door, it is all over with. The frog in the cooking pot is how it would work out, in my opinion. Diketones however is something that frankly I am surprised people do not care about. I am so tired of people who have the mindset government should be in every nook and cranny of our lives. It is hard enough to make ends meet as it is. Adding more expense with taxes and regulation is going to hurt average people. It will also put people out of work, and close small business down. This industry is thriving. Add a bunch of rules, and you will see innovation crushed.



As far as self regulating, if they lost business because people refuse to buy juice with diketones, that might make some drop it as an ingredient. I for one would prefer to buy from a place that has their juice tested independently. I haven't known about this very long, because I am new to vaping.

As long as there is money involved, people are gonna be dishonest. This industry needs regulation to prevent banning IMO

 

[Redhotchewy]

You didn't understand what I am saying.The Coca-cola example is irrelevant to say the least.You are comparing the food/drink market where there are established standards for years and a market that has none!!!And the commercial chemistry world has no similarity with e-liquid production!
If Coca-cola was using only water and phosphoric acid and mentioned that their water is certified by a company X and the phosphoric acid by a company Y then those certificates are not enough to guarantee that the final product doesn't contain harmful substances.That's why the final product is tested and approved or not and they are not based on what each providing company claims.
My point is that the final product can contain diketones even if the flavoring used doesn't because the maker is not restricted by any laws/regulations.I have the ability as an e-liquid manufacturer to do as I wish since there are no standards.Simple!

I don't know what to tell you. I have not once disagreed with the need for testing and yet you perceive me as an opposing opinion. I have discussed frankly the methods and reasons why and how a company may test its products and you told me its crap. You have left no room for discussion. *Shrugs* the outcome will be the same regardless as I stated at the beginning of this comment line. The industry will move to do batch testing in due time and process.

 

[fredrikstad]

ok, what does idf and kgd mean ?

kgd is Ko-gen-doe Japanese cotton.

 

[vlahmapoutras]

I don't know what to tell you. I have not once disagreed with the need for testing and yet you perceive me as an opposing opinion. I have discussed frankly the methods and reasons why and how a company may test its products and you told me its crap. You have left no room for discussion. *Shrugs* the outcome will be the same regardless as I stated at the beginning of this comment line. The industry will move to do batch testing in due time and process.

If that's what you understood then you actually leave no room for discussion.

 

[vlahmapoutras]

Speaking of flavors maybe we could also discuss diketones-free flavors.
I am not very familiar with DIY so if anyone knows of vendors that test their flavors and publish the results, share the knowledge.