DIY Master Techniques - Flavor Add-on's (EM, VW, BW, MTS, ACV, ect)

[we2rcool]

If you look back at we2Rcool's posts he said that 130F, 135F did not make much difference then steeping at 120F. The magic number seemed to be 150F. I gave that a try in my UC at 150F and noticed a big difference in steep time and quality. So if your going to test this I would keep a control bottle off to the side as a benchmark then do one at 120F and one at 150F. Steep both for the exact same amount of time but you shouldn't need more then 3 - 5 hours for results. This is just my humble opinion.

Oopsy, that wasn't us...although we totally understand in a thread this long & jam-packed with info how folks might confuse who-posted-what-when-about-what (or something like that :::eyeroll::: )

We've used a dehydrator at 150F, and an ultrasonic (where the water ultimately gets up to/over 150). But the ultransonic 'starts cold' (or at whatever temperature the water is that we add...which has been around 140). It turns itself off if it gets too hot, but I can't remember the exact temp goal/shutoff without the manual (and I don't know where it is).

So, we've only tested with 2-3 hours in the ultrasonic, vs 4 hours at 150F in the food dehydrator. We've done no testing (controlled or otherwise) at any other temperatures.

 

[ratchet62]

Thanks Danny. I came in late in the discussion and haven't had the time to go back and read the post(s) about the difference between comparing temperatures by we2Rcool.

I have now done six bottles at 135 degrees, 2 at 4 hours, 2 at 6 hours and 2 at 8 hours, with 1 capped and 1 uncapped for each time.
----- cut for brevity -----

Just have to say THANKS to we2Rcool for their previous work on this and for sharing it with everyone (BTW, I am originally from Iowa, as it seems is we2Rcool. "Corn fed and country bred" as I like to say)! Hopefully as I do my testing I will be able to replicate and confirm their results. Now I just have to start using some saline in my mixes as they have suggested too (I already have 120ml of .9 saline solution waiting on me to do it).

Great effort there. I've been wanting to do something like that myself. A well designed, multi variate, experiment to quantify the results. Looks to me like you have all the bases covered here.

I look forward to seeing the final results.

Thank you in advance for your hard work.

 

[we2rcool]

I think that most all flavorings have mystery ingredients (unless of course we get the flavoring manufacturers to reveal their recipes). The flavoring vendor I use has FDA approval for all of their flavorings as well as being kosher approved.

It takes HUNDREDS of 'mystery chemicals' to create just ONE "flavor profile" Food Labs Use An Average of 2000 Chemicals To Create 500 'Natural Flavors' You Would Never Suspect Are Artificial...so those flavorings we get with 'multiple personalities' are likely to have thousands of mystery chemicals. And the FDA approval for GRAS of these unknown chemicals includes 'GRAS approval' for diacetyl, acetoin & acetyl proprionyl (all know to cause varying amount of harm when inhaled). The FDA doesn't have anything like a "GRAS" for inhalation, only for ingestion.

There is only one manufacturer/vendor creating/marketing flavorings without the three bad boys, and that's FA (FlavourArt - those categorized for e-cigs, not their Kitchen Magic line which vendors market along with their e-cig line).

Of the others, there's only one that regularly tests & discloses whether or not their flavors contain the diacetyl/like chemicals, and that's TFA (The Flavor Apprentice). But their disclosure is limited to generalizations, like 'trace amounts', <1%, or <.01%.

Problem is, the current safety regulations CDC - NIOSH Update - Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione: NIOSH Seeks Comment On Draft Criteria Document call for 8ppb (8 hours a day) to 25ppb (short term/15 minutes) for inhalation safety (ppb = parts per billion). But if we take TFA lowest disclosed percentage (less than .01%), and take that down even further to .05% (and use that only 5% in our mixes )...that works out to 250 ppb (10x more than the safety guidelines for short term/15 minute inhalation).

We do NOT want to turn this valuable thread into a debate over "safety" (there are plenty of other threads for that). We just wanted to respond and point out that 'FDA/GRAS for ingestion' is worthless when it comes to the inhalation of those 3 chemicals...and add that those three chemicals are very prevalent (and undisclosed) in many vaping flavors.

 

[we2rcool]

Thanks Danny. I came in late in the discussion and haven't had the time to go back and read the post(s) about the difference between comparing temperatures by we2Rcool.

I have now done six bottles at 135 degrees, 2 at 4 hours, 2 at 6 hours and 2 at 8 hours, with 1 capped and 1 uncapped for each time.

I shook each bottle at each 2 hour mark as well.

I have NOT tasted any of the bottles as of yet and all have sat capped at room temperature for 12-16 hours now (basically overnight).

First thing I noticed was that there is no colorization difference between the capped/uncapped bottles for any of the durations when compared to the capped one for the same duration. Next there has been no loss of liquid between the capped or uncapped bottles (which I thought there may be because of using a dehydrator).

Next there is a distinct color difference between all duration bottles and the control bottle that was not heated (several shades).

Next, there is what I would say is about 1-2 shades different between the 4 hour and 6 hour and again between the 6 hour and the 8 hour bottles. Virtually no coloration difference between the capped/uncapped bottles of the same duration, although there may be a taste difference.

As per your advice (and that of we2Rcool's), I will next do another six bottles at 150 degrees using the exact same flavor mix. I also have some of this flavor that has steeped naturally for 3 months in a large amber bottle and after I am done with the 150 degree test I will put some in a clear glass bottle to compare coloration differences. Then start to actually TASTE the different durations to see what that results in.

FYI I am using a flavor that starts out, when freshly mixed, as a very, very light golden color that then turns to a much darker amber color when naturally steeped. I probably should do a tobacco that turns from a light yellow color to a red color after a long natural steeping, which may be the next set of testing that I do.

Just have to say THANKS to we2Rcool for their previous work on this and for sharing it with everyone (BTW, I am originally from Iowa, as it seems is we2Rcool. "Corn fed and country bred" as I like to say)! Hopefully as I do my testing I will be able to replicate and confirm their results. Now I just have to start using some saline in my mixes as they have suggested too (I already have 120ml of .9 saline solution waiting on me to do it).

GREAT JOB VegasDealer! Which reminds me - are you a dealer in Vegas? What game? I once had my bags packed to moved to LV to deal blackjack - but never got on the plane. (Las Vegas would likely eat me alive, spit out the remain, and still be hungry for breakfast! lol).

Yep, definitely 'Ioway country bred' here! But if you ever come back to visit, you'll find it's nuttin' like it used to be. Tons of massive GMO corn fields, and virtually NO small herds of livestock (at least in comparison to what it was when I was young). There's plenty of small abandoned barns n' chicken coops - but most-times (in counties where you'd see dozens of small herds & flocks in a couple of miles from the 'hard road'), you see only one or two every 15 minutes.

'Looking forward to seeing your saline experiments & results!

 

[dannyv45]

Thanks Danny. I came in late in the discussion and haven't had the time to go back and read the post(s) about the difference between comparing temperatures by we2Rcool.

I have now done six bottles at 135 degrees, 2 at 4 hours, 2 at 6 hours and 2 at 8 hours, with 1 capped and 1 uncapped for each time.

I shook each bottle at each 2 hour mark as well.

I have NOT tasted any of the bottles as of yet and all have sat capped at room temperature for 12-16 hours now (basically overnight).

First thing I noticed was that there is no colorization difference between the capped/uncapped bottles for any of the durations when compared to the capped one for the same duration. Next there has been no loss of liquid between the capped or uncapped bottles (which I thought there may be because of using a dehydrator).

Next there is a distinct color difference between all duration bottles and the control bottle that was not heated (several shades).

Next, there is what I would say is about 1-2 shades different between the 4 hour and 6 hour and again between the 6 hour and the 8 hour bottles. Virtually no coloration difference between the capped/uncapped bottles of the same duration, although there may be a taste difference.

As per your advice (and that of we2Rcool's), I will next do another six bottles at 150 degrees using the exact same flavor mix. I also have some of this flavor that has steeped naturally for 3 months in a large amber bottle and after I am done with the 150 degree test I will put some in a clear glass bottle to compare coloration differences. Then start to actually TASTE the different durations to see what that results in.

FYI I am using a flavor that starts out, when freshly mixed, as a very, very light golden color that then turns to a much darker amber color when naturally steeped. I probably should do a tobacco that turns from a light yellow color to a red color after a long natural steeping, which may be the next set of testing that I do.

Just have to say THANKS to we2Rcool for their previous work on this and for sharing it with everyone (BTW, I am originally from Iowa, as it seems is we2Rcool. "Corn fed and country bred" as I like to say)! Hopefully as I do my testing I will be able to replicate and confirm their results. Now I just have to start using some saline in my mixes as they have suggested too (I already have 120ml of .9 saline solution waiting on me to do it).

Great job with what you've accomplished so far. I would like to recommend that you always steep with the cap on. Leaving the cap off does nothing to help the steep process.

You only want to leave the cap off to air off any unwanted alcohol or undesirable odor. And that is done before or after the steep process and not during. You would leave the cap off and let it sit. Usually 24 hours is enough time with the cap off.

 

[VegasDealer]

GREAT JOB VegasDealer! Which reminds me - are you a dealer in Vegas? What game? I once had my bags packed to moved to LV to deal blackjack - but never got on the plane. (Las Vegas would likely eat me alive, spit out the remain, and still be hungry for breakfast! lol).

Yep, definitely 'Ioway country bred' here! But if you ever come back to visit, you'll find it's nuttin' like it used to be. Tons of massive GMO corn fields, and virtually NO small herds of livestock (at least in comparison to what it was when I was young). There's plenty of small abandoned barns n' chicken coops - but most-times (in counties where you'd see dozens of small herds & flocks in a couple of miles from the 'hard road'), you see only one or two every 15 minutes.

'Looking forward to seeing your saline experiments & results!

Yeah, I am a casino dealer in Las Vegas (past 30 years). I deal nearly every game ever offered in a casino. I do go back to Iowa as often as possible because all of my family still lives there. I noticed the GMO corn signs in the fields years ago and the desolation of the small farms. "It ain't what it used to be" no doubt.

Now, if I remember correctly, didn't you suggest a 50/50 DW/saline mix when adding water to mixes? And was it at 10% to the PG/VG mix? I know that I am looking for something that will help alleviate to drink plenty of fluids while vaping to prevent vapors tongue and to help eliminate the disappearing flavor when vaping over a couple of ml's of juice when chain vaping and think that the saline may be the trick.

 

[VegasDealer]

Great job with what you've accomplished so far. I would like to recommend that you always steep with the cap on. Leaving the cap off does nothing to help the steep process.

You only want to leave the cap off to air off any unwanted alcohol or undesirable odor. And that is done before or after the steep process and not during. You would leave the cap off and let it sit. Usually 24 hours is enough time with the cap off.

The reason I left the caps off on half the bottles is to do exactly what you say the reason is for, to quickly eliminate any alcohol/odor. Killing two birds with one stone was my thought process. But I do realize that in doing so that the breeze created by the dehydrator may drop in some unwanted dust/particulates in the juice, so to help eliminate this possibility I may cover the uncapped bottles with a mesh of some sort (like cheesecloth). I also wanted to see if there was going to be any significant loss of liquid when the cap was left off to air out the juice (particularly being in a dehydrator), and with the particular flavor I used, there was no loss (but that's not to say it would not be different with a flavoring which may contain more alcohol as a carrier than the flavor I used). I will keep your advice in mind, as it is good advice.

 

[ratchet62]

A good way to allow a bottle to air out and keep dust and such out of the bottle is to stuff a cotton ball in the mouth of the bottle. This will allow evaporates to escape, but help keep dust out. Acts like a filter.

 

[VegasDealer]

...We do NOT want to turn this valuable thread into a debate over "safety" (there are plenty of other threads for that). We just wanted to respond and point out that 'FDA/GRAS for ingestion' is worthless when it comes to the inhalation of those 3 chemicals...and add that those three chemicals are very prevalent (and undisclosed) in many vaping flavors.

Personally, I inhale very little vapor into my lungs. I vape like I would smoke a cigar. I fill my mouth with vapor and then slowly release it through my mouth and nose. This allows the nicotine I so crave to be absorbed through my salivary glands instead of my lungs (which I have read that vapor is too thick to allow any nicotine to be absorbed by one's lungs and the best method is as I have described above) and have just recently had this confirmed by a professional respiratory therapist.

 

[VegasDealer]

I am thinking that maybe some day I will be able to afford a "level 8 clean room"

 

[we2rcool]

Yeah, I am a casino dealer in Las Vegas (past 30 years). I deal nearly every game ever offered in a casino. I do go back to Iowa as often as possible because all of my family still lives there. I noticed the GMO corn signs in the fields years ago and the desolation of the small farms. "It ain't what it used to be" no doubt.

Now, if I remember correctly, didn't you suggest a 50/50 DW/saline mix when adding water to mixes? And was it at 10% to the PG/VG mix? I know that I am looking for something that will help alleviate to drink plenty of fluids while vaping to prevent vapors tongue and to help eliminate the disappearing flavor when vaping over a couple of ml's of juice when chain vaping and think that the saline may be the trick.

Wow, 30 years dealing...that's amazing! Oh, the stories you can tell!

Yes, if we're interpreting what you wrote correctly. We make what we call "VG Base". We dilute VG by 20%. The 20% dilution details out to be 9% distilled water; 9% saline solution and 2% pure grain alcohol. Then we plug that "VG base" into the calculators as plain ole VG...even though that means the percentage of water/saline/pga is altered a bit by the overall flavor percentage. More flavors = less "VG base"; less flavors = more "VG base" (just as one expects, if they think about it).

Of course, one could add water, pga & saline separately to every mix to maintain 'the perfect ratio'...but holy-moly, we'd be cross-eyed trying to do that.

We've never been able to taste the saline/salt, but others report being able to taste it. So before you whip up a big ole batch, we suggest giving it a try. A few days ago, after mixing a new recipe, we were actually able to taste the salt for the first time. But we immediately found that although we could taste it with the Nextel wicking, we could not taste it at all with plain silica wicking. 8-o And when messing around with the different wicks & coils and straight vg-nic (no water, saline, pga, just plain ole vg & vg-nic), we understood why-maybe at least one poster mentioned the saline was "harsh". Sheesh, we'd forgotten how intensely dehydrating the plain vg-nic is; but we'd also forgotten how incredibly "pillow-ish & soft" it is...when we crawled our parched selves back to our "VG Base", it had a bit of a kinda 'Throat Hit' we'd never noticed before. But oh, WHAT a relief it was from the intense dehydration.

We've currently got 8-10 60ml bottles mixed in varying ratios of VG, nic, dw, saline and pga (some without pga), so we'll give them all a major testing over the next few days. It's been almost a year since we did our initial testing, and we were coming straight from "vendor juices" (that were 20%-50% PG)...and the PG was killing us. So we discerned absolutely no 'harshness', throat hit, or salt taste at all with the VG Base we decided upon. But now we're guessing that someone coming in from 'straight VG' might have a different experience...and of course, wicking material, resistance/voltage, etc., are all major variables.

We're also thinking that the tiny bit of pga might come into play somehow with the 'salt sensation', but we'll see what we see about that when we test 'em.

We're seriously looking forward to hearing what you do and what you experience!

 

[we2rcool]

The reason I left the caps off on half the bottles is to do exactly what you say the reason is for, to quickly eliminate any alcohol/odor. Killing two birds with one stone was my thought process. But I do realize that in doing so that the breeze created by the dehydrator may drop in some unwanted dust/particulates in the juice, so to help eliminate this possibility I may cover the uncapped bottles with a mesh of some sort (like cheesecloth). I also wanted to see if there was going to be any significant loss of liquid when the cap was left off to air out the juice (particularly being in a dehydrator), and with the particular flavor I used, there was no loss (but that's not to say it would not be different with a flavoring which may contain more alcohol as a carrier than the flavor I used). I will keep your advice in mind, as it is good advice.

Another potential issue with "caps off at 150 degrees"? Evaporation of water...and that would concentrate the flavors (and possibly saline) a bit - depending upon how much might evaporate. I see you mentioned there was no drop in fluid level in the bottles - but since I don't know/remember if you're using water/saline, I thought I'd mention it.

We're pretty much in the habit of shaking & burping ever 30-45 minutes for the 4 hours (I wants to smell them anyway)...until the bottles stop doing that "pfffft thing" when we uncap them. Then after they've cooled, we sometimes leave the caps off select mixes for several hours - especially if they seem over-strong or chemical/perfumey.

 

[ukeman]

Just read somewhere; must have been the TFA thread, about Bav. Cream and Sweet Cream having some AC (?) in it and their custardy flavorings…
I've been using TFA Sweet Cream in so many of my fruit flavors to smooth out… and will continue as from We2rcool's posts, feel it's safe enough.

I am amazed at your thoroughness and knowledge we2rcool…. thanks for all the advice!

 

[Exchaner]

I steep my juices the natural way - using body heat.... I fill up a few cartos and keep them next to my heart in my side pocket. At night, I put them in the pocket of my pajamas. You may laugh, but it works ... For me at least.

 

[Blueser]

I steep my juices the natural way - using body heat.... I fill up a few cartos and keep them next to my heart in my side pocket. At night, I put them in the pocket of my pajamas. You may laugh, but it works ... For me at least.

I'm not laughing...I love it...this idea could gain traction...Body Steeping...Part 1-2&3...anyway, UC is sooo 2013

 

[michaelsil1]

I steep my juices the natural way - using body heat.... I fill up a few cartos and keep them next to my heart in my side pocket. At night, I put them in the pocket of my pajamas. You may laugh, but it works ... For me at least.

I carry around a freshly mixed bottle in my pocket, works well.

 

[Slots]

Hope I'm on topic here, as I just found the thread and have only read half of it.

Here's the dilemma
After a year and 1/2, I've decided to vape using straight PG. (long story)
I can make up for the amount of sweetness from the lack of VG, .. that's no problem.

But ... without any VG, the "peppery" taste of nicotine really shows up with the softer flavored juices.
Which additive would you recommend to disguise, or smooth it out the best, as I don't care for the strong TH ??

I've thought about using a few drops of Smooth, or some Vape Wizard diluted with PG.
I'm not sure the acid in ACV or lemon juice will do it.
How about .09 Saline, I know it "sweetens", and kills acid (like on a grapefruit)
I've never tried Magic Mask although I have some.
Any ideas or suggestions.
I'm in the process of reducing the nic I use, so I figure it will get better down the line ... but in the mean time ????

I know I can spend lots of time, and nic trying different DIY's, but I thought maybe someone here has "been there, done that"
It's worth asking anyway.

Thanks for any info

 

[we2rcool]

Just read somewhere; must have been the TFA thread, about Bav. Cream and Sweet Cream having some AC (?) in it and their custardy flavorings…
I've been using TFA Sweet Cream in so many of my fruit flavors to smooth out… and will continue as from We2rcool's posts, feel it's safe enough.

I am amazed at your thoroughness and knowledge we2rcool…. thanks for all the advice!

You're certainly welcome for whatever we've shared that has assisted you!

and will continue as from We2rcool's posts, feel it's safe enough

. Say WHAT? 'Just wanna be clear here (not disrail this thread from being about add-ons/techniques!), that the information we have posted on the use of "trace amounts" of these chemicals in a flavor (examples given of .6% and .05%), shows that using them at a mere 2%-5% in our juices respectively, causes them to deliver 10x to almost 50x more than the maximum safety recommendation.

But hey, if that adds up to 'safe enough' for anyone, that's entirely up to them! (We just don't want people misinterpreting our posts, or insinuating we believe it is).

 

[we2rcool]

I'm not laughing...I love it...this idea could gain traction...Body Steeping...Part 1-2&3...anyway, UC is sooo 2013

We're cracking up..."so 2013"!

We're falling into a pattern of having MAJOR mix sessions every 2-3 months...with around 8-12 standard/advs (2-4oz bottles) and dozens of 1/2 oz bottles. We'd look like smugglers with all those bottles stuffed in our pj's & duct taped all over us!

 

[ukeman]

You're certainly welcome for whatever we've shared that has assisted you!
. Say WHAT? 'Just wanna be clear here (not disrail this thread from being about add-ons/techniques!), that the information we have posted on the use of "trace amounts" of these chemicals in a flavor (examples given of .6% and .05%), shows that using them at a mere 2%-5% in our juices respectively, causes them to deliver 10x to almost 50x more than the maximum safety recommendation.

But hey, if that adds up to 'safe enough' for anyone, that's entirely up to them! (We just don't want people misinterpreting our posts, or insinuating we believe it is).

what he said…. thanks for the clarity