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FDA may soon propose regulation that could ban many/most e-cigarette products, eliminate many/most companies

Discussion in 'Z Old Stickies' started by Bill Godshall, Dec 1, 2011.

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  1. Lisa Belle

    Lisa Belle Super Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 26, 2010
    Sylvania, OH
    :toast: Thank You JD4x4 I did sign it, and yes, petitions are somewhat pointless to a lot people's thinking, but hey, we might as well show some numbers :vapor: that would be the online vaping community.
  2. JD4x4

    JD4x4 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 21, 2012
    Since I started vaping 2 years ago I've collected the research, and to see most of it being ignored is frustrating. I'm 62 but I'm past ready for revolution.

    From what I know now I think the :censored: hit the fan a while back, and it would take a miracle of Congress to redefine nicotine as NOT a tobacco product but a recreational substance for adult consumption, to reverse the inevitable ban.

    The ban probably won't happen in one generation, but it's in play and the seemingly "ok" deeming regulations are setting the stage, largely unnoticed.

    The WHO has set an agenda that is being carried out worldwide, the most notable and recent with the legislation in the U. K.

    It's called the Framework Convention on Tobacco Control (FCTC) and they've been working on it for 9 years. The U.S. is the largest government that has NOT (yet) ratified the FCTC, but it IS a signatory ¹ .

    We here in the U.S. are the ....... big brother that has to join the rest of the family quietly, so as to still appear to be sovereign to our own immediate family members. But, we've got some family members of our own (FDA, CDC, and influential U.S. NGO's) in our clan that have already decided we need to go "global" on this issue.

    And, as was pointed out in a leaked WHO memo ² :
    2.- Tobacco (including e-cigs) are targeted for eventual removal from society. (lines 11 and 23 in particular)

    The most recent FDA position paper on e-cigs was published on our seemingly closest family member's home turf, the U.K.'s BMJ Tobacco Control ³ ⁴, not a U.S. journal. No surprise that it's overwhelmingly negative.

    Michael Siegel's analysis of the FDA Deeming Proposal ⁵ points out just how bleak the outlook is for e-cig products in the future.

    5.- Given the surface appearance that the Deeming Regulations "could be worse" which is the likely comment from vapers, and the lead time the FDA built in for the climate to "cool" and people to acclimate to the status quo ...

    .. The younger of us are screwed, and the older of us have the means to work around the inevitable (stock up) and get on with our shorter lives until we no longer answer to mortals.

    A real shame for anyone still burning tobacco, though.

    But my head hurts from beating it against the wall for my 2 years of vaping, and I just bought another gallon of 10% 50/50 so I don't really have to go through the anguish if I don't want to.

    They call themselves "Tobacco Control" for a reason, and the reason is "elimination".

    And by the way, the deeming regulations include the wording:
    '. . section 916(a)(2)(B) of the FD&C Act states that the express preemption provision in subparagraph (A) “does not apply to requirements relating to” among other things “the sale, distribution, possession, information reporting to the State, exposure to, access to, the advertising and promotion of, or use of, tobacco products by individuals of any age.” '

    Which allows U.S. jurisdictions to continue to ban & regulate e-cig sales & use where and when they see fit. So much for that sigh of relief.

    ¹ WHO | Parties to the WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Control


    ³ FDA reveals its views on ecigs in new publication | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

    Tob Control
  3. Agorizer

    Agorizer Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 23, 2011
    In the Market
    Yeah, online petitions have proven SOOOO productive so far... (sarcasm off) Really, it can't hurt, other than to continue to encourage those who still hold out hope that THEY give a hoot in hell about US. It was this administration's first broken promise (no new taxes on the middle class) as embodied in the CHIPRA Act that raised the taxes on RYO (arguably less destructive than the stinkie sticks) which drove me to vaping. THEY know better than YOU what you need. THEY think they are gods.
    If there has been an answer to one of these petitions that has not been either a canned non-response, or tongue-in-cheek (the death star one was kinda cute), I missed it.
    Well, we still have a few years to hang out together, anyway. {Sigh}
  4. Agorizer

    Agorizer Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 23, 2011
    In the Market

    Great, concise post and view of the horizon, and WHO it is that is the real enemy. (The money masters have many puppets. Some of them even think that they aren't puppets; they are the most dangerous)
  5. aikanae1

    aikanae1 Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 2, 2013
    I think if you want to go further, it would be nice to see the tobacco chapter in the TPP.
  6. Jman8

    Jman8 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2013
    Well this is all good news (except for the part about Obama being re-elected). But I like what the bold part is conveying, in no uncertain terms.
  7. MonkInsane

    MonkInsane Senior Member ECF Veteran

    The world masters have decreed we will not have a cheap safe alternative to smoking, I guess it is just a maater of time until we'll have to resort to the black market to get our vaping supplies. Bull$%^# is what it is.

    The world needs an ENEMA!
  8. 6pointprime
    This message by 6pointprime has been removed from public view. Deleted by a moderator, Jun 4, 2014, Reason: Cross posting is not permitted on ECF..
    Jun 4, 2014
  9. tumbafox

    tumbafox Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2010
    bellerose NY
    Lets see them ban the VUSE
  10. tumbafox

    tumbafox Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2010
    bellerose NY
    Congress passed the Obama Tobacco Law, Obama signed it and since the FDA has missed its deadline by Two yes 2 years, the issue should be revisited as many new scientific, sociological and other studies including the health care cost of 750,000 American Tobacco related deaths a year have been published. The Government cannot pass laws then do nothing. There has to be a cut off date that if a law is not enacting years after passage, the Supreme Court should strike that law down.
  11. tumbafox
    This message by tumbafox has been removed from public view. Deleted by a moderator, Jul 13, 2014, Reason: Off topic.
    Jul 11, 2014
  12. tumbafox
    This message by tumbafox has been removed from public view. Deleted by a moderator, Jul 13, 2014, Reason: Off topic.
    Jul 11, 2014
  13. jandry

    jandry Senior Member

    Jul 8, 2014
    Austin, TX, USA
    Im quoting an old post, but the thread is still current. I agree 100% with this post. Bear with me on this next part:

    The US government has a track record of doing things that bring in governmental and corporate funds. The CIA has incited a number of coup d'etats in history to install governments favorable to US governmental and corporate interests (Chile and Iran are fully acknowledged by the government itself). A housing bubble was made by banks aiming for higher profits through subprime morgtages, politicians getting votes for such policy, and people blindly taking on loans to pay for the houses that hence skyrocketed in price (the markets way of indicating that too many people were buying houses beyond their means and hence prices rise to eventually stymie the process). Corporations like GM, Toyota, Chrysler, Dow, etc have continued to sell products they knew were harmful or potentially harmful solely for the sake of profit (it would hurt profits too much to fix the problem). The International Monetary Fund makes loans to third world countries, the money is used to build infrastructure, then when the government responsible for paying inevitably fails to repay in time, commercial and industrial resources are plundered and sold off to Western based corporations (and by extension, their governments) through privatization.

    If you put $2000 in a bank account, a year of yielding interest probably wouldnt get you $20 of profit, yet if you are $0.10 over using your check card, the same bank that gives you less than $20 for a year of using your $2000 in speculative markets charges you a $35 overdraft fee. And heres the real insult- since your money is FDIC insured, if the bank loses your money, the taxpayers pay the money to reimburse your loss (while those who ended up with the money originally keep it all). If a massive speculative bubble in the housing market occurs as a result of pooling collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) and the banks/corporations go bankrupt on account of wielding deposits worth a fraction of what they thought they were worth, the government passes a bailout package using pooled taxpayer money to reinforce their wealth. You pay taxes all throughout the year, and unless you are really poor, you only get the money back you gave in taxes (not an inflation adjusted amount) or less and thus allow the government to used pooled resources of the public and give you back a lesser result.

    My grandmother died due to her insurance company abruptly cutting off her supply of steroid injections (which were being used to treat degenerative bone loss). She would have lived about 5 more years, but since she had had the steroid injections long enough her body culled natural steroid production. 2 weeks after she would have had another steroid shot, her body slipped into shock. They saved her at the hospital (by injecting steroids among other things), but since she had been dead for 15 minutes, there was lasting damage to her liver and intestines. My grandfather got asbestosis in the Air Force, is 100% disabled and on every breathing treatment known to man- the VA decided he no longer needed oxygen...!

    If you bought enough gold in 1963 to purchase a car and put it away in a safe deposit box, you could pull that gold out today, sell it, and buy a new car. If you stored cash instead, you wouldnt even have a decent downpayment. This goes on and on. I could cite many more examples, and im sure all of you could cite even more than me.

    What does this have to do with e-cigs? It is a threat to the tobacco industry AND a threat to tax revenue the government collects AND a threat to all the drugs big pharma sells in response to smoking related health issues. On top of this, it is also a significant threat to social security, since people living longer means more money must exist for SS payments. Medicare/aide is a push- people live longer so more expenses, but ecigs likely cause less health issues to treat. While now only a minority of the public smokes/vapes, it is a sizable enough amount to cost money to "important" people.

    They need a way to make money across the board. The best way is to pass what little ecig sales still occur onto Big Tobacco, and greatly stymie ecig sales in general so that smoking continues its lucrative side-effect of health issues. A win win for all parties (except the People).

    Sorry for the long winded response. I agree 105% with the post I quoted. I am tired of the way the world works. I hope that we and other entities can protect some of our liberties (and money) in the coming legislative war, but im not holding my breath.

    Notice that drugs like ...... and such are illegal, but cigarettes are not?
  14. tumbafox

    tumbafox Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2010
    bellerose NY
    E-cigs are not going to be banned. Thats hysteria. Tobacco companies face the same requirements for new products as all the new e-cig start ups. Yes people will and should be put out of business.

    The law explicitly prohibits the banning of cigarettes which now include by definition e-cigarettes.

    The law is looking to stop a new generation of smokers. When the law was being written, lawmakers did not even know what e-cigarettes were. Its a process.

    The law simply states that the FDA is charged with oversight of the sale and production safety of new products.
  15. Lisa Belle

    Lisa Belle Super Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 26, 2010
    Sylvania, OH
    We should all just sit and vape as towns and cities one after another call it smoking and ban it and force vapers to be out in smoking areas only?
  16. tumbafox

    tumbafox Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2010
    bellerose NY
    Way off topic and discredits the forum in my opinion. We all know its a sick corrupt world but to get things done you have to focus. I am sorry or your troubles, we all lose things as we age. Cheer up.

    I due think this county is going towards fascism disguised at democracy.. Thats garbage. Its Haves and Have Nots. Terrible.
  17. pamdis

    pamdis Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 11, 2013
    Yes, tobacco companies face the same requirements as all new e-cig start-ups. Tobacco companies can afford to comply, new e-cig start-ups probably won't - or at least most of them won't. Are you really happy with having only what the tobacco companies have to offer?

    The law explicitly prohibits "banning all cigarettes, all smokeless tobacco products, all little cigars, all cigars other than little cigars, all pipe tobacco, or all roll-your-own tobacco products." Notice what's not on the list?

    Have you not heard? They truly think that e-cigs promote both new and continued smoking, and therefore frustrate their vision of stopping a new generation of smokers. (Actually, although this is their claim, I really think they are afraid of e-cigs attaining that very goal, and putting them out of work, but they don't dare say that)

    They are not simply charged with oversight of sale and production safety. They are charged with "preventing new products from entering the market if they are not appropriate for the protection of public health." Based on all their public statements to date, do you really believe they think that any e-cig is appropriate for the protection of public health?
  18. aikanae1

    aikanae1 Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 2, 2013
    "new products" includes all ecigs. even the SBA has concluded that the FDA hasn't taken a look at what they intend to ban and they are banning everything that doesn't have a min. of $500k for file an application for a single product. Only large corporations have experience with filing applications and fees. That's why projections of approved products based on FDA's estimations are as low as 25 when this is over. I suggest reading OMB's Economic Impact Report and the OMB forced the FDA to make favorable changes to the deeming regulations. Zeller has admitted that he intends to ban flavors but deeming came first. Flavors are essential to me for vaping, as they are to many esp in the beginning. Zeller also considers nicotine to be a drug - used as treatment for a specific medical treatment (NRT's) and finds it hard to approve a substance that could be harmful for "recreational use" such as tobacco products falls under. By his definition of public benefit both caffinne and alcohol would be banned if they came under FDA oversight.

    Several areas are very different with these regulations pending for ecigs and cigarettes is that cigarettes were grandfathered in and there is no option for that with ecigs. Cigarettes also qualified for SE or substantial equilvance because they were on the market prior to Feb 2007 and the last time I checked, only 4 products had qualified - all rolling papers out of more than 3,000 applications on file. That's not counting the applications that were dropped or not accepted during the past 5 years. Even more tedious are new applications, which the FDA admits is the most onerous way to market and most expensive - it was designed to be that way so that tobacco companies wouldn't provide a product like "light cigarettes" ever again. NO PRODUCT HAS EVER MADE IT TO MARKET UNDER NEW PRODUCTS that all ecigs have to apply under.

    There is evidence (based on comments made by tobacco companies the day the deeming regulations were published) that tobacco companies have had advance knowledge of what would be expected of them and per their own admission have had a 2 year head start, maybe inside hand-holding, in preparing their applications. They admitted they would still need an additional 2 years to finish up their applications. All of our devices don't get those same privledges and in the OMB report, there is specific mention when most small business will "exit" (close) the market.

    Yea, I'd call that a ban based on regulations. I guess most vapers don't consider tobacco company cigalikes to be in the same category as the devices they use on a daily basis. Obviously you must use Blu or Vuse. If your not aware of it, the cigalike industry is suseptable to the same market consolodation that oftern leaves the public with one or two corporations to choose from which is very different from the "wild, wild west" (otherwise known as competitive capitalizm) that we have been enjoying for the last few years.

    I doubt this is a problem restricted to the USA since I'm hearing similar reports from all over the world of the same tactics.

    Sure, there are regulations in place that prevent the FDA from doing what they are doing but the million (or billion) dollar question is who is going to enforce them, or even if they are enforceable.

    Do you need links to some of the documentation I've referred to?

    Meanwhile I hope you do find it compelling to put your thoughts, your story, your opinion into writting and submit to the FDA. There's one day left. Everyone counts.
  19. ClippinWings

    ClippinWings Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 12, 2011
    The OC
    45 minutes

    Anyone else just getting ill thinking about it?

    Our fate is 45 minutes from being out of our hands...

    We'll either be vapers, black market criminals, or smokers.... Depending on how this plays out...
  20. supertrunker

    supertrunker Living sarcasm Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2012
  21. aikanae1

    aikanae1 Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 2, 2013
    Naw.. There's still quite a process they have to go through.
    Don't forget, some folks have been stock piling since 2009 now.
    There's enough products and stuff in freezers to supply the community for a couple of years,
    however that's no way to grow an industry or get smokers off cigs.
    Meanwhile, try repeating the serenity prayer a few hundred times or so.
  22. ClippinWings

    ClippinWings Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 12, 2011
    The OC
    Which is called a black market... Which is illegal and would make us the "criminals" I listed.

    Yes I know it's not overnight... But the end result is we will all be one or more of those 3.
  23. ClippinWings

    ClippinWings Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 12, 2011
    The OC
    I won't be.... I refuse to ever be a smoker again. Regardless of what the FDA wants.

    But I do have nothing against free enterprise...
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