Greetings and toxicology

[rondasherrill]

Actually, the formaldehyde was found in just one sample of one brand, and in concentrations between 10-20% lower than in a standard tobacco cigarette. All the samples in that study were from traditional cig-like e-cig models that have the regular smog-flavored* e-liquid.

*smog-flavored is my own translation of what they taste like

Did just a little more digging on this... Vaporization in an e-cigarette happens at approximately 130 degrees, based on what is stated from Ruyan. Even HV mods or LR atties would not be too far off from that, as we use higher resistance with HV, and lower voltage with LR. PG however, does not denature below 210 degrees. There is a fair chance that any formaldehyde found in the one sample was the result of environmental or other contamination.

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/ElectronicCigsDarwinOct09.pdf
Meeting Minutes

 

[Racehorse]

Someone3x7, Welcome, nice post, and good summarization of much of what is catalogued by various people on this site, in different topics.

I believe it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that inhaling any but {clean} air carries some risk.

The problem with vendor bought juice is that I have no idea if they are using certain things. There is an interesting topic that is being kept up listing all the juices that "crack clearomizer" and polycarb tanks for instance.

As for the butter cream, etc. I would really like to know what kinds of juices have that, I mean, I don't know what that is, am not a chemist, and can't tell by the "name" of the juice.

I am now having second thoughts though on using plastic clearomizers and tanks. Possible
I may get a glass tank and use cartos. I'm planning on quitting vaping this Sept. as per my original plan because I knew all along that although vaping as a far healthier alternative to smoking there had to be some downside to the chems, etc ingested via the lungs. I also have serious concerns about the silca wicks in the clearos

I'm where you're at, although still very new. Just like I had a quit date for analogs, I have a quit date for vaping.

I can tell you this: the vendors who don't divulge what is in their juice within the boundaries of still keeping their recipe secrets/success, I just don't buy from.

Some people will make those flippant remarks like : "well we're all gonna die someday" which is true, however, I never fly in small airplanes with pilots who don't complete a rather disciplined CHECK LIST. Most of us who quit analogs did so in order to safeguard our health --- I see no reason not to keep improving on that idea in everything I do.

 

[kiwivap]

Someone3x7, Welcome, nice post, and good summarization of much of what is catalogued by various people on this site, in different topics.

I wouldn't say it summarizes what's been catalogued. The threads I've read have lined to some interesting reports and data over the last few years. This sticky - Opposition to e-cigarettes - a health risk analysis from Rolygate is a good read.
And this post also, which is correspondence from Dr. Murray Laugesen.

As for the butter cream, etc. I would really like to know what kinds of juices have that, I mean, I don't know what that is, am not a chemist, and can't tell by the "name" of the juice.

Juices with butter, cream, popcorn flavors usually have diacetyl. You may want to email and ask the supplier if they have diacetyl in their juice if you don't want it. It's commonly used in food of that kind. I think Rolygate's post points out that we don't want to irritate pre-existing conditions. You know if your airways are irritated. He gives a good example in his post.

 

[rondasherrill]

Juices with butter, cream, popcorn flavors usually have diacetyl. You may want to email and ask the supplier if they have diacetyl in their juice if you don't want it.

Which is why I ONLY get juice of these kinds of flavors from Kick Bass Vapor. Back when the diacetyl thing first blew up, they were one of the first to check with there suppliers, and stop using anything that might contain diacetyl, but somehow their flavors are still dead on to their description.

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

I am new to vaping and have also done quite extensive research into the mechanics of vaping. The one thing I have noted so far is the company I purchase my e-juice from does not list all the ingredients (including the flavour and its breakdown) on the bottle. I am hoping in the future this will change.

I do have food allergies and do react sometimes to certain dyes, colouring used in foods. Hopefully through experimenting I will find what works and does not work. It would be so much easier if all companies producing e-juice would have a detailed list of ingredients.

Thank you for sharing your findings! This forum has helped me so much!

Happy Vaping!

Wishing I could know some ingredients also! I too am allergic and/or sensitive to a few things. I've learned that most vendors won't list because it's "proprietary" and they're afraid others will copy their recipe if they list ingredients...or some such

 

[someone3x7]

I just spent a bit longer researching Vanillin and it was quite the chore. Ethyl Vanillin and Methyl Vanillin are virtual the same for the concerns I've heard voiced. Which were that they release hazardous gases when heated. I found several blurbs containing this referencing

[KURAVSKAYA IM, BOROVIK VN; FLAMMABILITY PROPERTIES OF SOME SYNTHETIC FRAGRANT SUBSTANCES & INTERMEDIATE PRODUCTS; MASLO-ZHIR PROM-ST 2, 19 (1975)] **PEER REVIEWED**

Unfortunately this study is not available on the web that I could find. I did also find the following:

A Gallery of Vanillin Photomicrographs

CARBON DIOXIDE AND CARBON MONOXIDE MAY FORM WHEN HEATED TO DECOMPOSITION. (Carbon monoxide is an extremely poisonous gas.)

Also some pretty pictures there

ETHYL VANILLIN - National Library of Medicine HSDB Database

When heated to decomposition it emits acrid smoke and irritating fumes.
[Lewis, R.J. Sax's Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials. 9th ed. Volumes 1-3. New York, NY: Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1996., p. 1611] **PEER REVIEWED**

http://www.sphinxsai.com/2012/pharm/PHARM/PT=39(266-279)JM12.pdf

On Heating Vanillin on heating gives CO and CO2 and it is give also antimicrobial activity against pathogenic micro organisms such as E.coli. Santeria.

Then the final and most important fact that ties it altogether:

http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/01680.htm

Decomposition Temperature: >160 deg C

Which is 320 fahrenheit. We shouldn't be getting anywhere near those temps. Now I also found references that vanillin is insoluble in water below 25 deg C. That is only a concern if your working with pure vanillin or vanillin crystals. Dissolving or diluting pure vanillin or vanillin crystal properly so that it doesn't build up in your lungs is a job best left to a professional. Flavorings containing vanillin should be safe to vape.

Actually, the formaldehyde was found in just one sample of one brand

I know the article your referencing and there have been further studies since then that have found formaldehyde. I've found more out about the formaldehyde concern, but, lost the references so will have to get back to that later. It was merely further evidence that we don;t need to worry about it.

As for the butter cream, etc. I would really like to know what kinds of juices have that, I mean, I don't know what that is, am not a chemist, and can't tell by the "name" of the juice.
...

I can tell you this: the vendors who don't divulge what is in their juice within the boundaries of still keeping their recipe secrets/success, I just don't buy from.

The Perfumer's Apprentice has been great in communicating with me. They are very knowledgable as well. Also, they already list what flavors contain one of diacetyl family "custard notes" on there website. I may be buying from them exclusively soon. Of the other two USA flavor manufacturers I've been working with one hasn't responded yet and the other has stated that they won't divulge what flavors contain acetyl propionyl or acetoin. I'm still communicating with the later to see if they will work with me on a certain flavor I really want.

 

[Racehorse]

The Perfumer's Apprentice has been great in communicating with me. They are very knowledgable as well. Also, they already list what flavors contain one of diacetyl family "custard notes" on there website.

But as a juice buyer, I still am clueless. I actually asked a vendor and they told me they use many different companies for their flavors, when I was trying to 'avoid' one of them.

 

[rondasherrill]

But as a juice buyer, I still am clueless. I actually asked a vendor and they told me they use many different companies for their flavors, when I was trying to 'avoid' one of them.

I don't know what other vendors do so, but Kick Bass Vapor uses ingredients that contain NO diacetyls in their juice, and their creamy/buttery/custardy still taste exactly how they are described. I've been buying from them since before they had a website.

 

[puddlejumper1]

Great info, would a PYREX tank alleviate the concern of Triactetin breaking down the plastics.

 

[someone3x7]

I don't know what other vendors do so, but Kick Bass Vapor uses ingredients that contain NO diacetyls in their juice, and their creamy/buttery/custardy still taste exactly how they are described. I've been buying from them since before they had a website.

The concern with this is Diacetyl is only one of the 3 ingredients that can have the same effect on your health. When the Diacetyl scare arose almost every vendor moved to Acetoin for the custards. Acetoin is safe until its heated which is fine for baking purposes. Since Diacetyl digests safely and they don't have to worry about any dangers in handling it. For the purpose of vaping acetoin is not suitable. To date I have not found any replacement for the diacetyl family in a custard flavor. Butter flavors can and are made without them by some manufactures. Yet, anyone selling you a Diacetyl-free custard specifically for vaping is questionable. I would at least ask them what they are replacing it with.

Great info, would a PYREX tank alleviate the concern of Triactetin breaking down the plastics.

Pyrex borosilicate glass is probably overkill. But yes.

 

[yzer]

Just remember. Drink plenty of water when you start vaping. You need to replenish those precious bodily fluids.

 

[rondasherrill]

Key point that needs to be made in this thread:

All these "bad stuffs" are in tobacco cigarettes in significantly higher concentrations than we get through vaping. Vaping is not a safe alternative, it is a safER alternative. We all know this, and vape anyway, so find what you enjoy, and vape on.

 

[someone3x7]

Key point that needs to be made in this thread:

All these "bad stuffs" are in tobacco cigarettes in significantly higher concentrations than we get through vaping. Vaping is not a safe alternative, it is a safER alternative. We all know this, and vape anyway, so find what you enjoy, and vape on.

I would hope this is something we are all aware of. Trying for greater harm reduction is still a worthy cause in my mind.

 

[SmokinBones]

Key point that needs to be made in this thread:

All these "bad stuffs" are in tobacco cigarettes in significantly higher concentrations than we get through vaping. Vaping is not a safe alternative, it is a safER alternative. We all know this, and vape anyway, so find what you enjoy, and vape on.

Yes, WE all know this...however, I doubt that will be the route tobacco companies take when lobbying for regulation and legislation. Sadly, the general population is prone to hitting the panic button. I can't count the number of things that I've seen outlawed or regulated on the basis that it was a threat to the general population when in fact it was only a threat to a small minority of people who made an informed choice knowing full well the dangers involved.

I don't know about other countries but it seems that here in the USA the status quo is to create regulation and legislation as soon as possible whether the information available is factual and accurate or not.

As soon as there are a few "reports" available from "testing" that's been bought by the tobacco companies who stand to lose everything, we will begin to see regulation if not complete outlawing. Tobacco is not going to stand by long and watch their profits drop without putting up a fight. Be prepared for the panic train to start rolling and when it does we can only hope that the medical community has some evidence to put up a fight against it. Tobacco will have all kinds of studies showing the dangers and it's a guarantee that none of those will show comparisons to smoking.

I hate to see it all happen but will not be surprised when it does. And I think it will be coming sooner rather than later...vaping is already putting a good hurting on tobacco and they won't stand for it much longer.

 

[someone3x7]

As soon as there are a few "reports" available from "testing" that's been bought by the tobacco companies who stand to lose everything, we will begin to see regulation if not complete outlawing. Tobacco is not going to stand by long and watch their profits drop without putting up a fight. Be prepared for the panic train to start rolling and when it does we can only hope that the medical community has some evidence to put up a fight against it. Tobacco will have all kinds of studies showing the dangers and it's a guarantee that none of those will show comparisons to smoking.

I read a report somewhere that Philip Morris was eyeing to get into the E-Cig market. The concern is more them lobbying for regulations that will drive small vendors out of business.

 

[rondasherrill]

I read a report somewhere that Philip Morris was eyeing to get into the E-Cig market. The concern is more them lobbying for regulations that will drive small vendors out of business.

That is what I'm worried about...

All of our testing and science really isn't going to mean much, once the dollars start whispering in political ears...

It's sad, but ultimately that's how things work in the real world.

 

[torbotek]

I read a report somewhere that Philip Morris was eyeing to get into the E-Cig market. The concern is more them lobbying for regulations that will drive small vendors out of business.

I think having regulations in place will help us in the long run...I think the smaller vendors will adapt like they have been doing already.

 

[someone3x7]

I think having regulations in place will help us in the long run...I think the smaller vendors will adapt like they have been doing already.

I agree the industry could use some regulation. Yet, lab analysis is not cheap. Just a few chemical analysis tests can run upwards of $10k or more. Unless a vendor is making juice in large vats having each batch tested for just the basics can easily cost more than the potential profits. Now a corporation like Philip Morris can easily produce much large batches. They can also likely do their analysis in-house. If they lobbied for regulations that required every potentially applicable test small vendors could be looking at as much as $100k in tests for a batch that might net them $6k in profits. Just to be clear I don't have any experience or communications to back up this profit margin. Its just a guess for an example.

 

[kiwivap]

Great info, would a PYREX tank alleviate the concern of Triactetin breaking down the plastics.

Yes. Some people have also found Polypropylene good to use - and it doesn't react with juices that do react with polycarbonate. Good post here on that. Also a list of juices that react with polycarbonate. The problem is not the juices themselves - it's the reaction with polycarbonate.

 

[kiwivap]

I agree the industry could use some regulation. Yet, lab analysis is not cheap.

Some suppliers have had toxicology tests done - links to those have been posted on the forum. Guessing figures is neither here nor there.
I highly doubt Philip Morris will lobby for every potentially applicable test - the results for cigarettes are so appalling that they would be harming themselves PR wise. It is more likely that if vaping really catches on they will think about moving into the industry and producing e cigs. They're business people - they'll go where the money is. But they've never been too keen on safety.