How can shops sell clones?

[kiwivap]

I clearly said board $11.64 VOMO V5 Variable Voltage/Wattage Mod Module - 3.0-15.0W / 3.0-6.0V / 0.6" OLED at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping

I realise you're talking about a circuit board, but you do know the Vamo is a clone these days, right? The first ones were called Ego-APV 2, and were cloned so fast by other factories that it was amazing. In fact the early "Vamos" were known by a number of names which vendors made up because they didn't care for "Ego-APV 2". It was called the Eagle, the Bamboo, and the Vamo. There was another version that came out identical but with Vision etched on the bottom cap.

The name Vamo stuck. There isn't an "original" anymore. Same board, same specs, with a few mods in the different versions. I've seen vendors listing "Vamo" and "EGO-APV 2" separately on their product pages - yet they are the same thing. Clones or just mass production to meet demand? In other words - no-one in China is complaining. Its an issue that's not always easy to navigate.

 

[acka]

^^No, I didn't know that at all tbh. Like I say, I'm mainly going on gut feeling and am an inexperienced vaper. My gut feeling was that the VAMO was a clone - of something like an Evic say. That would be a clone to me - it looks basically the same, preforms roughly the same functions but is significantly cheaper and doesn't try to 'pass off' as another product. I'd buy it over an expensive alternative myself, I'm pretty price sensitive when it comes to vaping. It then even becomes a product in its own right and may even surpass what it started out copying.

But the blatant 1:1 reproduction just seems...off. I have no other experience with this kind of availability and now I feel sorry for people who thought through their ingenuity/intelligence/luck/ability to capture the zeitgeist or whatever thought they had a viable business model and would be rewarded. That's capitalism to me - the cream rising to the top. This just seems like anarchy imo. People getting f'd over and unrewarded and a disheartening bitter attitude amonger vapers - 'f 'em, they shouldn't be so expensive' etc. It seems like a race to the bottom, no other self-respecting industry would engage in behaviour like this surely?

 

[kiwivap]

^^No, I didn't know that at all tbh. Like I say, I'm mainly going on gut feeling and am an inexperienced vaper. My gut feeling was that the VAMO was a clone - of something like an Evic say.

Vamo was released well before the Evic. Its not a clone of another mod - the original Vamo, the Ego-APV 2 has been cloned by other factories - and they are all just called Vamo. Its a clone of itself. I've read that the factories get a license to use the tech - I don't know if that's true. The boards are obviously up for sale in bulk, different runs in different places on body parts - clones or mass production? Its a moving line sometimes.

 

[ukeman]

I remember when Chinese made APV's ie Sig early on, imo were all about gloss and bling but not substance, and when the first "clones" of high end gear came out they were obviously aiming at a superficial buyer (dumb enough to not know or care about quality). They were poorly functioning junk.
The vapers who wanted to pay less for a fully functional mod (me too were like; "why don't they care about making it work well?"

Since then functionality has improved, but on the whole, I'd guess about %70 of clones are not as functional as the real deal, which was designed for the discriminating vaper... you know, innovation.

as far as i'm concerned too many of the real mech mods have glitch prone switches too! and then a cloner makes thousands of those too.

still looking for the perfect mech.... good conductivity; great switch and contact adjust. designs... fool proof; peerless.

looking for the "Peerless" mech
def: incomparable, matchless, unrivaled, inimitable, beyond compare/comparison, unparalleled, unequaled, without equal, second to none, unsurpassed, unsurpassable, nonpareil; unique, consummate, perfect, rare, transcendent, surpassing; formal unexampled.

then the Peerless clone

 

[hazarada]

Clone != counterfit, a counterfit is a product thats ment to deceive the customer into thinking its a product by some other more reputable company. So for instance, if you make a shirt and put Nike logo on it without the permission of Nike, thats a counterfit. Vaping related clones do no such thing, none of them claim to actually be the item they are supposedly ripping off.

Also I find the hatred of "clones" stupid. If you can make the exact same product and sell it for a cheaper price, its fair game. The majority of R&D invested in a mass produced item such as an atty is not the actual product itself but rather production efficiency, logistics, sourcing, quality control and so on.

The "original" producing companies are often the ones to popularize certain innovations and trends in vaping gear but don't underestimate the effort put into creating the clones either. The reason the original producing companies don't try and patent any of the innovations is because its more efficient for them to spend the money on advertising or they weren't the ones to come up with it in the first place. Also vaping related innovations aren't exactly giant leaps in science but rather adaptations of existing technology and knowledge.

Do I think that innovators deserve their slice of the pie for what they did? Of course, but, the current patent system is fundamentally flawed (which i wont go into right now) and its basically a choice between monopoly and nothing when it comes to handing out intellectual rights. In face of those 2 I prefer nothing.

 

[acka]

none of them claim to actually be the item they are supposedly ripping off.

I honestly don't know what this even means. They put they Hana Modz logo on the clone.

What are you trying to say?

 

[MrKiltYou]

Clone != counterfit, a counterfit is a product thats ment to deceive the customer into thinking its a product by some other more reputable company. So for instance, if you make a shirt and put Nike logo on it without the permission of Nike, thats a counterfit. Vaping related clones do no such thing, none of them claim to actually be the item they are supposedly ripping off.

That might be the legal definition for a counterfeit. However the definition of the word counterfeit can simply mean an imitation of the original product. Which is what mod "clones" are. They are a 1:1 replica of the original product. While they do identify them as clones they make sure the are indistinguishable from the original mod. This is a way for them trade on the name, marketing, and success of the original product. In their own way the are also deceiving in that you let people feel like the real thing which you don't.

I bet they would not have as much success if they called them Knockmesis, Chi Yep, and some other distinguishable name.

Also I find the hatred of "clones" stupid.

I don't think many people on this thread have expressed a hatred for clones; I think you are projecting from other threads. I myself brought into the conversation the word counterfeit because as I said I believe calling a spade a spade. I even admitted to owning multiple counterfeit products.

 

[ukeman]

I'm surprised we don't see more arguments from the political/labor side of things... ie. Fair Trade laws.
I never wanted to get into it because political discussions can get pretty heated, but we are talking about an industry.

I have cars from Asia... for price and quality, but I don't support the unfair trade practices that are going on that take jobs away from our labor pool. Its pretty damn complicated but even ecig manufacturers here would have to compete with foreign labor costs which is ridiculous.

If fair trade laws were focused on and improved, I wouldn't mind paying more if i knew it benefitted the country's (USA) economy mainly by improving the lot of American workers.

 

[acka]

^^Completely different issue though. Hyundai don't stick Mercedes badges on their cars.

 

[hazarada]

That might be the legal definition for a counterfeit. However the definition of the word counterfeit can simply mean an imitation of the original product. Which is what mod "clones" are. They are a 1:1 replica of the original product.

I have several clones like the rsst, griffin and a chobra but none of them are exact replicas. At the most they could be said to share design principles with their originals and nobody would ever confuse them for the actual original which I think is the defining characteristic of the word counterfeit.

 

[MrKiltYou]

I have several clones like the rsst, griffin and a chobra but none of them are exact replicas. At the most they could be said to share design principles with their originals and nobody would ever confuse them for the actual original which I think is the defining characteristic of the word counterfeit.

So on those "clones" they are not using the OEM's logo's and graphics on them? If not that is great! I am completely ok with that and would consider them a clone over a counterfeit!

However there are plenty of "clones" that are indistinguishable to the OEM product to the layman. Those I consider counterfeit even if the manufacture lists them as "clones".

 

[stevegmu]

how can shops get away with selling clones? is it just me or is that weird its like there selling counterfeit stuff and i thaught that was illegal? you dont find any legit shops selling "clone" designer products why do people buy these clones knowing its only hurting the mod maker isnt it illegal to sell fake stuff in america


like who said clones were cool to sell but every other counterfiet item is illegal

Vendors in DC openly sell counterfeit watches, handbags and bootleg DVDs. No one cares...

 

[Ar10shooter]

Well let me say this, I went to a b&m yesterday the nice lady behind the counter told me all about their stuff and how good of a store they were, and how they only carried genuine stuff. I was just their to try some of their juices, but after looking around I though what the heck I want to try a rba. Talked to her for awhile and bought an Aqua. I paid $49 for it. Not having a clue about the prices and what have you, but I like to support local when ever I can. So I got home and started doing a net search trying to figure out how to build it. To my suprise I figured I bought a clone for that price it wasn't a genuine aqua I just bought. Not sure if I paid a fair price for a clone or not but atleast I got to try something new. I don't think I would have paid over a bill for it so their is some good that came from a cheaper alternative. That being said I did upset me that I got a clone when I thought a was buying something genuine, although I would never know it if it had not been for the price I paid.

 

[yellowrider]

I find it a bit puzzling that accepted norms for clones are not to have logos on them. So it's completely ok to copy/clone the product as long as the logo is not on it..? So what do you call your Chi you after you scrub the logo off of it when someone asks what mod that is? Do you tell them that is a hi you, because by telling them its a Chi you clone, you would be violating your personal rules with logos and company name..? In actual reality to the consumer what difference does that make to you? How are you supporting the modder when you are still purchasing the same clones without the logo? I can see the original makers wanting to protect quality control and not wanting any association with bad products, but the consumer end.. I think it's a crock of bs. If you don't support it don't support it at all. Would only buy if the logo was not on it.. saying is hard to buy at times when the guy has a collection of cloned mods. Hate seeing this middle of the road justification for everything to make one feel ok..

Here is the real reason everyone buys them.. We are all getting smarter, knowing we can get similar results for way-less money.. Some of the real deal are just not obtainable, so where do we turn to... Yep you guessed it, CLONES.. Now make yourself feel better by sanding that logo off the copied product.. Wait, it's still copied after the logo has been scrubbed off.. Back to square one..

 

[Ar10shooter]

I find it a bit puzzling that accepted norms for clones are not to have logos on them. So it's completely ok to copy/clone the product as long as the logo is not on it..? So what do you call your Chi you after you scrub the logo off of it when someone asks what mod that is? Do you tell them that is a hi you, because by telling them its a Chi you clone, you would be violating your personal rules with logos and company name..? In actual reality to the consumer what difference does that make to you? How are you supporting the modder when you are still purchasing the same clones without the logo?.

I think the difference is a clone is made just like an original a counterfeit has the logo and is passed off as an original.

 

[yellowrider]

no one is paying 200 for chi you clone tho.. So counterfeiting is not really the issue.
Look at V3 Flip and the noise they are generating. Not about fooling others into a false product, I'm talking about peoples morality in buying clones then justifying it by saying the logo is removed.
Not trying to stir a pot here, but I buy real, cloned, whatever that appease me. I do not feel I need to scrub any logos off, as most are off from the original anyways.

 

[Coldrake]

The artwork on some of these mods is also a gray area. If it's not copywritten artwork then it's not protected and anyone can use it.

Absolutely 100% WRONG. There is no gray area. Any artwork created in a visual medium is automatically copyrighted the moment it is created. I know this for a fact because I've dealt with it before on more than one occasion.
17 U.S. Code Chapter 1 - SUBJECT MATTER AND SCOPE OF COPYRIGHT | LII / Legal Information Institute

Here it is in layman's terms for you.
Copyright Information for Artists: How Copyright Laws Protect Your Art

Technically it's not a counterfeit if the graphics are not © protected.

The graphics are always © protected unless the creator gives up those rights or until the © runs out. See above.

What I'm trying to express is that if a persons intelectual property is pirated, it's their own damn fault. It only costs about $100 to have it © protected.

And another thing, if the original manufacturer puts a product out on the market with no sort of production, such as a trademark, then they deserve what they get. Why should we, the consumer, avoid products that look exactly the same if the manufacturer didn't feel like wasting their time or money to protect themselves? There is no good reason for us to even care. Now, if the manufacturer did take the time to protect themselves and there are still manufacturers copying their work, that is a different story, but I am yet to see this be the case.

It can take up to 1, 2, or more years for the copyright to be processed. As fast as this industry moves, it would probably be a waste of time.

Nice attitudes by the way.......

 

[Cloud Junky]

It is okay because it is labeled as a replica or clone, if it were labeled as authentic and was a clone there will be some legal issues there.

 

[Topacka]

Absolutely 100% WRONG. There is no gray area. Any artwork created in a visual medium is automatically copyrighted the moment it is created. I know this for a fact because I've dealt with it before on more than one occasion.
17 U.S. Code Chapter 1 - SUBJECT MATTER AND SCOPE OF COPYRIGHT | LII / Legal Information Institute

Here it is in layman's terms for you.
Copyright Information for Artists: How Copyright Laws Protect Your Art



The graphics are always © protected unless the creator gives up those rights or until the © runs out. See above.



It can take up to 1, 2, or more years for the copyright to be processed. As fast as this industry moves, it would probably be a waste of time.

Nice attitudes by the way.......

To be clear, all of this, in it's entirety, is ONLY VALID in The United States of America, correct? And the copywrite laws of other countries are completely different?

 

[brickfollett]

Only read through page 4, but here's my take regarding the price of Authentic devices.

It TOTALLY makes sense that manufacturers are charging the price they are. Why would they not? It's all about supply and demand. A great analogy would be the new Hana mods or the Zenesis ZNA. I'll use the Hana though.

The demand of authentic Hana mods is incredibly high. the supply however is low. This is all controlled by the price people are willing to pay and how much they will buy.

If a manufacturer has a low demand, it will provide a low amount of supply. There is a balance between supply, demand and price. With a lower demand, the manufacturer will charge a lower price to increase the demand, because as price decreases, demand increases. The manufacturer will supply the amount that gets them the most profit.

If a manufacturer has high demand, they will supply as much as possible so that they can increase profit. The higher the demand, the higher they can charge. And people will pay it. However, if the supplier doesn't have the capacity (or chooses not to have the capacity) to supply enough to meet the demand, the price skyrockets. With a low supply and a very high demand, the price becomes very high.

Personally, I don't think that the Hana mods are being restricted as far as the amount supplied goes. It's more profitable for them to meet the demand and charge a lower price than it is to provide a limited supply and charge a high price that people will pay anyway because of the demand. I see those suckers going for 500 bucks on ebay! But people will pay it.

This is just what I'm currently learning from my economics class in business school. Hope it makes sense lol