How can shops sell clones?
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It's valid in 167 countries around the world under the Berne Convention. As far as the length of time to process a copyright in other countries, I really don't know.
Exactly, if authentics would stop being lazy and go through the effort of patenting their device, even internationally you could get the chinese cloner in trouble. I think the market should be competitive, and if they can bring the same performance for cheaper, more power to them. The authentics should have to make a name for themselves if they sell not-so-amazing products for amazing price.
Not reading 9 pages of the same old yadda-yadda, so I'm sure I've missed some salient posts...
As long as the vendor isn't trying to convince you you're getting a legit product, I'm cool with them selling a clone.
It pisses me off that cloned e-cigs and accessories are sold with rip-offs of the original maker's logos. I'd feel better buying an unbranded or re-branded clone than one that could potentially be passed off as original.
I won't spend $200+ on a mech mod. Sorry, ain't happening when there's a device that's 99% as good for 99% off. Some people have unlimited budgets and/or limited desire to build a collection. If so, more power to you, I wish I had the massive wealth/disciplined frugality to join your ranks.
If I find the "Mod to End all Mods," I'll probably buy the legit device. But as far as sampling goes, I'm happy playing with a handful of designs, and if I'm blowing 2 days' pay on every experiment it severely limits my ability to play around - not to mention that I'm hoping one day vaping will actually be cheaper than (or at least as cheap as) smoking.
I don't want to wait months for the opportunity to overpay for your little metal tube. If you're not prepared to sell it to me, but someone else is, I'm buying from the person that's selling a product rather than the one that's assembling an interest list for next month. Immediate gratification junkie? Yerp.
Some people argue clones are better than originals, if purchased from the right vendor. Kayfuns, anyone? Case in point: I've been soiling my trousers over a Valkyrie hybrid, got to inspect a clone up close and personal at a B&M and was impressed. Came to ECF and found a ton of QC issues with the original device.
tl;dr: I'm down with the clones, just wish no one would pass them off as legit.
As long as the vendor isn't trying to convince you you're getting a legit product, I'm cool with them selling a clone.
It pisses me off that cloned e-cigs and accessories are sold with rip-offs of the original maker's logos. I'd feel better buying an unbranded or re-branded clone than one that could potentially be passed off as original.
I won't spend $200+ on a mech mod. Sorry, ain't happening when there's a device that's 99% as good for 99% off. Some people have unlimited budgets and/or limited desire to build a collection. If so, more power to you, I wish I had the massive wealth/disciplined frugality to join your ranks.
If I find the "Mod to End all Mods," I'll probably buy the legit device. But as far as sampling goes, I'm happy playing with a handful of designs, and if I'm blowing 2 days' pay on every experiment it severely limits my ability to play around - not to mention that I'm hoping one day vaping will actually be cheaper than (or at least as cheap as) smoking.
I don't want to wait months for the opportunity to overpay for your little metal tube. If you're not prepared to sell it to me, but someone else is, I'm buying from the person that's selling a product rather than the one that's assembling an interest list for next month. Immediate gratification junkie? Yerp.
Some people argue clones are better than originals, if purchased from the right vendor. Kayfuns, anyone? Case in point: I've been soiling my trousers over a Valkyrie hybrid, got to inspect a clone up close and personal at a B&M and was impressed. Came to ECF and found a ton of QC issues with the original device.
tl;dr: I'm down with the clones, just wish no one would pass them off as legit.
I hear you, and I feel the same way... up to a few months ago my favorite mod was the NB Neme which had the best voltage drop of anything... its still my favorite design, but almost as fast as it came out, the brass clones came out with virtually the same performance. NB Neme's were being flipped easy, for $300 (for a month or two until the clones).
Then the alumineme tubes came out with even slightly better performance (with brass top and bottom caps)...
Then a long awaited BCV XXIX copper pinless (hybrid pos adapter) came out and beat those... that was a couple months ago, and they are still in their 3rd run, and tons of vapers are on a pre pay list still waiting. The owner/designer is manufacturing them here and oversees all production, and he would if he could, but he can't get them out fast enough, with quality setbacks etc ... at $150 or so per tube, he is not making a killing, as he is not in Shenzen China either where they pay 50 cents an hour.
I can afford a couple hundred ea. on the best performing mech devices, and I've settled on the ones I love, and when I want backups, and a 1:1 clone is available for $17 shipped...hell, I'm not filthy rich, I buy the clones.
However anyone wants to look at it; ripping off the design and all, that's the way it is....
but I don't blame the innovators that are trying to make a profit and making them here in the USA, Europe, Greece, Phillipines etc, (not in China) we have to pay for the time and the cost... if its innovative and it cost that much to have one, that's the way it is too.
I appreciate that ECF is doing something like making the rules about selling clones vs counterfeits on the classies... i got my ad pulled the other day since i didn't understand the exact meaning of their rules, but hell ECf started out with these innovators when it wasn't all blown up the way it is now (a couple thousand buyers on first run day... or clones coming out before the 2nd run is out lol) and a new design was celebrated like a community. Lots of innovators were (and still are) getting ideas and feedback from members here in the forums to make a better device.
F5 wars sucked after a while.... hell when Reo metal mods came out, or their VV, you couldn't get close to getting one right away. And this happens with the new mech tubes from the well known makers.
I think it sucks for a mod maker that a tech can reverse engineer a mod in China and crank out thousands of them for pennies on the dollar, but that's the way it is.
If it wasn't for the people who designed the originals, and people buying them to make it worth their while you wouldn't have the designs for anyone to clone.
The marketing folks who work for counterfiet manufacturers probably go around on forums like this one stirring the pot to blur the lines between clones and counterfiet. It benefits them to do so.
Putting someone's trademark falsely on a product is counterfiet.
Making a no-brand copy is a knockoff.
Putting your own brand on a copy is a clone or rebrand.
Patent restrictions may apply.
Everybody buys clone spoons all the time, but if you bought a spoon that was stamped "Stainless Steel" and it started to rust after a week, that's a counterfiet.
Putting someone's trademark falsely on a product is counterfiet.
Making a no-brand copy is a knockoff.
Putting your own brand on a copy is a clone or rebrand.
Patent restrictions may apply.
Everybody buys clone spoons all the time, but if you bought a spoon that was stamped "Stainless Steel" and it started to rust after a week, that's a counterfiet.
It doesn't take much to design a tube with a switch and threads on either end. If you mean the engraving, I'm happy without it.
Just cause AMG sells their engines assembled by hand doesn't make them any better than Ford who has low paid assembly lines doing it. Yea the machining is better. But 10x the price better, not for me.
AMG didn't invent the engine, and neither did the guy with a machine shop invent the mod. I have a Silver Bullet. And that's about as revolutionary as vaping got. Then came side switches and now bottom. Then you have all the high wattage devices coming out. Only so far you can go. Its not a complicated device.
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Stainless steel can rust too, even after a week under some conditions. Also SS describes that the alloy has chromium in it not whether it rusts or not. Also stamping something stainless steel while its not stainless steel isn't counterfeiting because SS is not a trademark, in fact it would merely be false label on the piece which you could get away with in most countries.
A great video which fits this discussion pretty well. Worth watching...
Love this guy's attitude and really makes want some of his product.
Love this guy's attitude and really makes want some of his product.
I had a local B&M shop tell me their Kayfun's were AUTHENTIC but had them priced at +/- $50 (one was a 3.1 and the other was a Lite, I think). I laughed - told him, no way in HELL is that authentic. Came in a stupid little white box - told him he best get to know his merch. Another customer overheard the conversation and began laughing at the guy behind the desk. We, together, told him that between the two of us would buy ALL KF's they had in stock if they provide us the original PO and prove where they came from. He left, spoke to Mgr, and came back and said they were clones but would not tell us where they came from nor would he identify which clone maker the product came from. Sry........just lost a customer. Was only the 2nd time I was there...but will NOT be going back!
If the mod makers were smart, this is what they would do. They can only produce a finite amount that they can sell. Pick a number, it doesn't really matter. Vapor get their panties all bunched up and buy them out before they even are produced. Vendor can only make a limited number.
Hmmmm. How can we increase profits? 1 raise price. 2 cut costs.... what about 3? Sell the plans or getting in on a percentage of the number made out of china. They still keep their finite amount of "originals" and get a portion of the "clone" market.
Then don't tell anyone.
Hmmmm. How can we increase profits? 1 raise price. 2 cut costs.... what about 3? Sell the plans or getting in on a percentage of the number made out of china. They still keep their finite amount of "originals" and get a portion of the "clone" market.
Then don't tell anyone.
how can shops get away with selling clones? is it just me or is that weird its like there selling counterfeit stuff and i thaught that was illegal? you dont find any legit shops selling "clone" designer products why do people buy these clones knowing its only hurting the mod maker isnt it illegal to sell fake stuff in america
like who said clones were cool to sell but every other counterfiet item is illegal
Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but some manufacturers such as Sigelei and Smoktech make many items similar to authentics but with slight differences. This allows vape shops to sell clones, without selling clones, for those vape shop owners who are "repulsed" at the idea. But I tell ya, interest in clones is growing, and they are getting better and better in terms of quality. I am seeing more and more (online shops at least) selling clones. I recently came across one online vendor, that for every authentic mod, sold a 1:1 clone as well. Which I thought was great, though not sure whether it is a smart business decision or not. I don't think anyone is seeking to break any laws by buying or selling clones, particularly the average vaper, and particularly those on a budget.
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I personally don't have a problem with clones ... In fact, as I am typing this, I am vaping from an authentic Kayfun Lite mounted on top of a Caravela clone.
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What I don't understand is why HCigar felt the need to not only engrave the Caravela logo on this clone, but to go so far as to even engrave the original mod makers initials on this clone (just like it's engraved on an authentic Caravela mod).
HCigar advertises this Caravela mod as a clone (no deception there) .... But puts the exact logos on there clone as the original Caravela has (seems like a lot of deception there).
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What I don't understand is why HCigar felt the need to not only engrave the Caravela logo on this clone, but to go so far as to even engrave the original mod makers initials on this clone (just like it's engraved on an authentic Caravela mod).
HCigar advertises this Caravela mod as a clone (no deception there) .... But puts the exact logos on there clone as the original Caravela has (seems like a lot of deception there).
Well we're paying for their time and costs of doing business in a country where it costs more to make than in China.
You are comparing Ford to China. and Fords are more comparable to an authentic mech. You can't buy a clone car from China for 1/10 the price of a Ford can you?
Silver Bullet has wiring... which may make it not a mechanical... do you not sub ohm vape?
I agree its not complicated but you can't get a good mech from China ... until it is "cloned" and it can't be a "clone" unless first it was an authentic
what i'm saying is if authentic mech makers could make a good (or great) device in their own country and sell it for $17 (or even $50) and make a profit, they'd be doing it.... believe me.
You don't get it....The issue isn't that people are trying to justify purchasing a clone, the issue is that the retailer selling to the end-user has the option of lying to the consumer by telling them it is an original mod and charging them the price of the original mod instead of telling them it is a clone and charging them clone prices. It is just about eliminating the option of ripping off the consumer by telling them the clone is an original.
This whole issue could be eliminated if the clone manufacturer didn't make it EXACTLY the same as the original (name of the product, company logo's, etc...) That just leaves the uneducated consumer open to being screwed.
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