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dripster

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Mooch changed his way on advising the community in 2017, dropping his MVA rating (because people took it as build advice) and recommending nobody should exceed his CDR rating with any battery.

So how do you verify the assumption that "you know what you're doing"? Do you have data on the internal temperature of the cells you're using while vaping like you do? Data on degradation of the battery under those use conditions?

If not you really can't make a case for "knowing what you're doing" and it's just a hollow phrase to make you feel warm and fuzzy. "Nothing happened to me" isn't "I know what I'm doing".

Writing what you write, even if you say you're not recommending it, is still implying that it's ok to vape like that because, hey, that guy does it...
Eg posting on a forum "I don't recommend it but here's how you make explosives with diesel and fertilizer" will get you a romantic date with the feds and most likely have legal repercussions.
If you're really serious with not wanting to recommend a certain brand of vaping then at the very least don't paint it as practical or alternatively generally keep it to yourself/private channels.
Just because Mooch dropped his MVA ratings as a result from the fact that a lot of people were abusing his MVA ratings, doesn't also mean I would be abusing his MVA ratings had he not dropped his MVA ratings. (Even, if that doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy.)
 

Topwater Elvis

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What is abundantly clear is the fourth bullet point in red here ---> Mooch's blog | E-Cigarette Forum

Over time equipment methods & accuracy improves, knowledge is gained through testing, results change.

Some folks will go to any length to justify all sorts of nonsensical risk taking behaviors.
Even go so far as to brag about what they can do but others shouldn't.
The whole ' I'm special look at me thing.'
 

dripster

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What is abundantly clear is the fourth bullet point in red here ---> Mooch's blog | E-Cigarette Forum

Over time equipment methods & accuracy improves, knowledge is gained through testing, results change.

Some folks will go to any length to justify all sorts of nonsensical risk taking behaviors.
Even go so far as to brag about what they can do but others shouldn't.
The whole ' I'm special look at me thing.'

The Sony VTC5A is not a 35A battery!
"But this is only if the battery temperature is kept at 80°C or lower!"

But what if my battery temperature is kept at 45°C or lower because I have everything it takes for me to keep it that way? Would that still make me irresponsible even though I don't recommend to anyone to do the same, and, does your assumption that I am bragging about something make you feel special?
 

Rossum

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Nor does it mean that you should necessarily always knock on those people who do it whilst they know what they're doing, and, I thought Mooch was abundantly clear about that in the video I linked.
I'm not knocking you for doing it. You do whatever you want.

But please don't tell mech mod n00bs that this is "safe", because it isn't.
 

untar

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(Even, if that doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy.)
So you obviously at least read up to the "warm and fuzzy" part of my post but chose to ignore the "knowing what you're doing part" right before that in your response...

Not gonna jump to conclusions but that doesn't support your mantra of "knowing what you're doing" in any way, shape or form to say the least. If I had to guess about a random vaper having the specialized equipment and math/physics skills to get the data to be able to say they "know what they're doing" then the answer would be a resounding "no".
Either expose your data and method of acquiring it to public scrutiny (which I'll happily accept if plausible) or stop saying you know what you're doing when you're demonstrably not. If you have no idea of cell core temp or rate of degradation then you don't get to assume you know anything and give readers the impression you do.

I'm this pedantic about it because that exact phrase gets thrown around a lot in the super sub ohm community but is never backed up by anything verifiable, making it essentially meaningless.
If your whole argument hinges on you knowing what you're doing then it will stand or fall at that exact point.
please don't tell mech mod n00bs that this is "safe", because it isn't.
To be fair that's not exactly what he does but he's apparently ok with noobs reading this (since it can't be prevented) and random people with unknown levels of experience trying it based on his writings.
I believe I tore apart the "if you know what you're doing" and "I don't recommend" qualifiers sufficiently in my last posts and I'd be surprised to see meaningful data backing up his view of himself.
To any newbie reading this that should be enough information to judge the usefulness of the information presented.
 
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dripster

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I'm not knocking you for doing it. You do whatever you want.

But please don't tell mech mod n00bs that this is "safe", because it isn't.
I already said (twice in this thread) lithium ion rechargeable batteries are dangerous, and, I linked a video with Mooch literally saying lithium ion rechargeable batteries are dangerous. Doesn't that sufficiently imply that it isn't safe, and, just because Mooch also said in that same video that it is dangerous to vape on these batteries, should everyone who vapes on them suddenly stop vaping on them? My point is that he gave an explanation about duty cycles, the duration of your pulls, the waiting time in between those pulls, and knowing when to put the mod down letting the battery cool down, all in that same video. I get that I shouldn't recommend anything other than the CDR. I also get why that is, as Mooch himself has already explained that too. But as you can see for yourself here, Mooch's description of "so much drama" (see that video again...) is still applicable to a lot of what's been happening to this thread. I don't actually vape at .04 on a series mech BTW, but I know Mooch doesn't want to admit that he does. Just kidding of course.
 

Topwater Elvis

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None of the above.
Keep on fabricating justifications using 2 year old info and completely missing the point.

You make a great example of the OP.

Before you go thinking I don't understand your point, I get it.
It would be deadly, seriously life threatening for someone unfamiliar with working in close contact with my bulls/livestock or farm/heavy equipment in very rural settings.
I do it by myself and have for decades. I know my stock & equipment, I know their body language & looks, all the intricacies and dangers of every moving part or piece and any situation I might find myself in.
Not to mention the natural hazards that can getcha if you aren't paying attention to everything around you constantly.
There is no help or second chances when, not if things don't go my way.
I certainly don't tell others with similar interests how I do it or offer advice.
If they don't already know how to do it their way and were to use any of my words or methods, they could very easily end up dead.
I'd feel some responsibility for that.

Do what you do, no reason to blabber on about what you do, some dummy may think you know what you're talking about & try it.
 
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Mooch

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    Here's a video interview with Mooch himself explaining the opposite holds true.



    It’s critical to understand that this is a very old video and I have significantly changed the way I talk to vapers about vaping above the CDR. The selective grabbing of my words, the ignoring of the potential risks when recommending things to other vapers, etc., have showed me that I need to be MUCH more conservative when talking about any of this.

    The massive abuse of my MVA ratings forced me to remove them from my tables as many vapers took those current limits, never to be approached, as frakkin’ STARTING points when others asked what resistances were good to use.

    So while you can survive vaping with very low resistances you can NEVER even hint that it is safe and it presents real risks if there is a mod malfunction or accidental button press that discharges the battery continuously.

    Think about driving. No use of a car is safe...ever. We can minimize the risks but it’s never going to be safe. While we can drive 150mph to work every day and never have a problem someone else could crash the first time...because the risks were huge at that speed. Surviving the use of a product at risky levels does not mean it’s safe. The risks have not changed.

    So while I feel that every vaper can decide how they want to vape, as long as they know, understand, and accept the risks, I ask them not to tell others it’s “safe” to do the same just because they haven’t blown themselves up yet.

    Start other vapers off at below the CDR, let them learn what’s going on and what is and is not risky. Let them then decide what level of risk they are willing to take.

    Please check out my Minding Your mAh series on my Battery Mooch YouTube channel for more info about the risks we take and what I feel is and is not acceptable.
     

    dripster

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    So you obviously at least read up to the "warm and fuzzy" part of my post but chose to ignore the "knowing what you're doing part" right before that in your response...

    Not gonna jump to conclusions but that doesn't support your mantra of "knowing what you're doing" in any way, shape or form to say the least. If I had to guess about a random vaper having the specialized equipment and math/physics skills to get the data to be able to say they "know what they're doing" then the answer would be a resounding "no".
    Either expose your data and method of acquiring it to public scrutiny (which I'll happily accept if plausible) or stop saying you know what you're doing when you're demonstrably not. If you have no idea of cell core temp or rate of degradation then you don't get to assume you know anything and give readers the impression you do.

    I'm this pedantic about it because that exact phrase gets thrown around a lot in the super sub ohm community but is never backed up by anything verifiable, making it essentially meaningless.
    If your whole argument hinges on you knowing what you're doing then it will stand or fall at that exact point.

    To be fair that's not exactly what he does but he's apparently ok with noobs reading this (since it can't be prevented) and random people with unknown levels of experience trying it based on his writings.
    I believe I tore apart the "if you know what you're doing" and "I don't recommend" qualifiers sufficiently in my last posts and I'b be surprised to see meaningful data backing up his view of himself.
    To any newbie reading this that should be enough information to judge the usefulness of the information presented.
    The reason why I chose to ignore it is simply because, clearly, you chose to ignore most of what Mooch has said about drama. When people chose to go to the Moon knowing full well that it was dangerous there wasn't nearly so much drama.

    What I'm doing isn't anywhere nearly as dangerous as some are trying to suggest because 45°C is still a far enough distance away from 80°C so there's substantial headroom as well as because my pulls don't last very long due to the relatively high wattage I'm getting with a pair of reasonably small, and efficient, Nichrome80 coils, whilst the waiting time between my pulls in conjunction with that is sufficient for localized heat inside the battery to never build up to such an extent that the battery temperature measured on the surface of the battery can no longer be representative according to spec so as a result there's even more headroom. That plus the fact accidental button presses are not me, nor are buttons that remain stuck for very long after they decide to get stuck. How do I know it never reaches above 45°C? It's because it barely even gets warmer than my own skin even after I chain vaped on it for like two whole minutes.
     

    Zaryk

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    The reason why I chose to ignore it is simply because, clearly, you chose to ignore most of what Mooch has said about drama. When people chose to go to the Moon knowing full well that it was dangerous there wasn't nearly so much drama.

    What I'm doing isn't anywhere nearly as dangerous as some are trying to suggest because 45°C is still a far enough distance away from 80°C so there's substantial headroom as well as because my pulls don't last very long due to the relatively high wattage I'm getting with a pair of reasonably small, and efficient, Nichrome80 coils, whilst the waiting time between my pulls in conjunction with that is sufficient for localized heat inside the battery to never build up to such an extent that the battery temperature measured on the surface of the battery can no longer be representative according to spec so as a result there's even more headroom. That plus the fact accidental button presses are not me, nor are buttons that remain stuck for very long after they decide to get stuck. How do I know it never reaches above 45°C? It's because it barely even gets warmer than my own skin even after I chain vaped on it for like two whole minutes.
    Taking the temp of a battery is much more technical than simply touching the outside of the can. The internal temp is what matters, and the outside temp does not accurately represent the internal temp at all. The internal temp if your vaping on it will be much higher than the external temp. I run mechs every day and my batteries do not even get warm to the touch, but of course i run 10-12a coils on 25-30a batteries.
     

    untar

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    The reason why I chose to ignore it is simply because, clearly, you chose to ignore most of what Mooch has said about drama. When people chose to go to the Moon knowing full well that it was dangerous there wasn't nearly so much drama.
    I wasn't creating any drama though, I was questioning if you know what you're doing.
    So how do you verify the assumption that "you know what you're doing"? Do you have data on the internal temperature of the cells you're using while vaping like you do? Data on degradation of the battery under those use conditions?
    How is that drama by any definition? It's a calm request to be shown your data and methodology, not making any claims or assumptions.
    If you dismiss simply being questioned as "drama" then there doesn't seem to be a way to have a reasonable conversation with you on that topic anyways.

    Now, according to your last post
    [...] the waiting time between my pulls in conjunction with that is sufficient for localized heat inside the battery to never build up to such an extent that the battery temperature measured on the surface of the battery can no longer be representative according to spec so as a result there's even more headroom. [... ]How do I know it never reaches above 45°C? It's because it barely even gets warmer than my own skin even after I chain vaped on it for like two whole minutes.
    we know that you don't have a valid method, don't use a thermometer, don't record temp curves, don't have a thermal conductivity constant for the battery and don't do the math to know what that means for core temperature. No statement about cell degradation/aging whatsoever. In other words you don't know any hard facts about what you're doing (or seemingly even the necessary theory to get you there).

    Thanks for clarifying that to all kinds of vapers reading this thread.
     

    dripster

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    It’s critical to understand that this is a very old video and I have significantly changed the way I talk to vapers about vaping above the CDR. The selective grabbing of my words, the ignoring of the potential risks when recommending things to other vapers, etc., have showed me that I need to be MUCH more conservative when talking about any of this.

    The massive abuse of my MVA ratings forced me to remove them from my tables as many vapers took those current limits, never to be approached, as frakkin’ STARTING points when others asked what resistances were good to use.

    So while you can survive vaping with very low resistances you can NEVER even hint that it is safe and it presents real risks if there is a mod malfunction or accidental button press that discharges the battery continuously.

    Think about driving. No use of a car is safe...ever. We can minimize the risks but it’s never going to be safe. While we can drive 150mph to work every day and never have a problem someone else could crash the first time...because the risks were huge at that speed. Surviving the use of a product at risky levels does not mean it’s safe. The risks have not changed.

    So while I feel that every vaper can decide how they want to vape, as long as they know, understand, and accept the risks, I ask them not to tell others it’s “safe” to do the same just because they haven’t blown themselves up yet.

    Start other vapers off at below the CDR, let them learn what’s going on and what is and is not risky. Let them then decide what level of risk they are willing to take.

    Please check out my Minding Your mAh series on my Battery Mooch YouTube channel for more info about the risks we take and what I feel is and is not acceptable.
    Thank you for your reply. I am well aware of everything you just said, as I have been watching (and re-watching) every video of yours, and also every video interview with you in it that I could find a year ago, and, that is also precisely why I am not telling others it is safe to vape how I vape. In this thread I have already said (thrice) that it isn't safe, but quite a few people here appear to still disagree, really fanatically it would seem, with your feeling that I can decide how I want to vape, as long as I know, understand, and accept the risks. Everyone has the right to feel different about it than how you feel about it of course. But I feel the same way about it as you do, yet, despite that, these people are unscrupulously attacking me for my simply pointing out the fact that I do. That's why I believe you were right when you said there's so much drama. :)
     

    Zaryk

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    Thank you for your reply. I am well aware of everything you just said, as I have been watching (and re-watching) every video of yours, and also every video interview with you in it that I could find a year ago, and, that is also precisely why I am not telling others it is safe to vape how I vape. In this thread I have already said (thrice) that it isn't safe, but quite a few people here appear to still disagree, really fanatically it would seem, with your feeling that I can decide how I want to vape, as long as I know, understand, and accept the risks. Everyone has the right to feel different about it than how you feel about it of course. But I feel the same way about it as you do, yet, despite that, these people are unscrupulously attacking me for my simply pointing out the fact that I do. That's why I believe you were right when you said there's so much drama. :)
    The "drama" you refer to stems from people that care about others and their safety. My deepest apologies if it offends you that some of us actually care about other people.
     

    untar

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    In this thread I have already said (thrice) that it isn't safe, but quite a few people here appear to still disagree
    I wonder why
    Personally, I, feel safer with a mech than I feel with a regulated mod. And that is despite I vape my mech fairly high above the CDR of my batteries on a daily basis, but nevertheless I don't recommend going above the CDR because
    Oh yeah, that's why. Doesn't matter if you say you don't recommend it (I pointed out why it doesn't).
    these people are unscrupulously attacking me for my simply pointing out the fact that I do
    Can't speak for others but I myself was mainly questioning your specific claim that you know what you're doing, repeatedly, over a number of posts. Apparently rightfully so since you use a very different definition of "knowing what you're doing" than I do (and maybe others who read this as well).

    I'm not attacking the way you vape, do what you like and how you like it, whatever keeps you off cigarettes.

    However I don't appreciate very much the way you're presenting it in this particular thread, apparently without second thought about the effect it could have on other vapers you don't know anything about their level of expertise, gear or behavior. You appear very resistant to the idea that there could be any fault in posting that kind of stuff on the forums and seem to think this is all about you when it isn't.
     

    Ryedan

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    None of the above.
    Keep on fabricating justifications using 2 year old info and completely missing the point.

    You make a great example of the OP.

    Before you go thinking I don't understand your point, I get it.
    It would be deadly, seriously life threatening for someone unfamiliar with working in close contact with my bulls/livestock or farm/heavy equipment in very rural settings.
    I do it by myself and have for decades. I know my stock & equipment, I know their body language & looks, all the intricacies and dangers of every moving part or piece and any situation I might find myself in.
    Not to mention the natural hazards that can getcha if you aren't paying attention to everything around you constantly.
    There is no help or second chances when, not if things don't go my way.
    I certainly don't tell others with similar interests how I do it or offer advice.
    If they don't already know how to do it their way and were to use any of my words or methods, they could very easily end up dead.
    I'd feel some responsibility for that.

    Do what you do, no reason to blabber on about what you do, some dummy may think you know what you're talking about & try it.

    Great post @Topwater Elvis and I agree totally.

    It's unfortunate that some people just don't understand, but it is what it is. All we can do is keep on being responsible and keep on trying to make a difference :cool:
     

    dripster

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    Taking the temp of a battery is much more technical than simply touching the outside of the can. The internal temp is what matters, and the outside temp does not accurately represent the internal temp at all. The internal temp if your vaping on it will be much higher than the external temp. I run mechs every day and my batteries do not even get warm to the touch, but of course i run 10-12a coils on 25-30a batteries.
    If the datasheet says you can discharge at 35A continuously up to 80°C, which, BTW, it does, then surely I can do short pulses lasting only very few seconds each, that factually average closer to only 30A instead of 35A, with comparatively long pauses in between, up to only 45°C instead of 80°C knowing full well it is factually closer to only 40°C so I added an extra safety margin just to be sure. I don't need to accurately measure it to correctly tell the difference between warm and lukewarm. That is why I said the battery temperature measured on the surface of the battery is representative ACCORDING TO SPEC. I.e., I am operating the battery always within spec, as stated in the official datasheet. Like I previously said, I also take proper care to never ever let the battery get discharged continuously so it can never ever reach 80°C. Just like I take proper care to ensure my coil builds are always going to be reliably stable, and, I measure their resistance accurately.
    The "drama" you refer to stems from people that care about others and their safety. My deepest apologies if it offends you that some of us actually care about other people.
    No. The drama stems from people that are continuously flaming at me.
     

    dripster

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    I disagree.
    The ability to super subohm is independent of whether it is necessary in order to get a hot, satisfying vape.
    I was only being sarcastic of course, just trying to get a point across, and, in my reply to @Rossum I also mentioned I don't actually build that low. But "satisfying" is still only a subjective term so the ability isn't strictly independent for everyone.
     
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