New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Since cotton expands and rayon shrinks with heat and use, the right amount of wicking goes a long way toward a safe vape. I suspect that a lot of the bad stuff comes from improperly sized wicking and going too long before changing it. Hot legs, coils not touching wick all over, and over-driving the wick that's installed are all factors.

Yeah, I use rayon, and it shrinks. I occasionally get problems where 1 loop of the cool isnt touching the wick, and turns into a hot leg. Not devil .... dry hit taste, but definitely can get a tad scorched tasting. I wonder how long it is burning hot in that spot before I actually notice the taste though.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Yeah, I use rayon, and it shrinks. I occasionally get problems where 1 loop of the cool isnt touching the wick, and turns into a hot leg. Not devil .... dry hit taste, but definitely can get a tad scorched tasting. I wonder how long it is burning hot in that spot before I actually notice the taste though.

I have frequently had the same experience with my coils. When I fire them empty before wicking, I think that I have made the perfect coil but later see the hot spot. I will be checking that final loop for wick contact - neat observation, thanks.

 

[WillyZee]

Oh gawd, remember when this used to be our guide:

I still use this chart

1.7ohms 3.6 volts

 

[DaveP]

Yeah, I use rayon, and it shrinks. I occasionally get problems where 1 loop of the cool isnt touching the wick, and turns into a hot leg. Not devil .... dry hit taste, but definitely can get a tad scorched tasting. I wonder how long it is burning hot in that spot before I actually notice the taste though.

We tuck the wicks down into the juice channels. How often do we check to make sure the outer coils are pressed against the wick? I do that all the time in my Kayfuns. Every once in a while I'll get warmth in the vape from relaxed wick ends that fall downward long after being tucked in the juice channels. I'm still getting good vapor, but sensing too much warmth for 10 watts. That could be a low end creator of the bad stuff mixed into a good vape.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

We tuck the wicks down into the juice channels. How often do we check to make sure the outer coils are pressed against the wick? I do that all the time in my Kayfuns. Every once in a while I'll get warmth in the vape from relaxed wick ends that fall downward from being tucked. I still get good vapor, but sensing too much warmth for 10 watts. That could be a low end creator of the bad stuff mixed into a good vape.

I've been doing the "M" wick approach, where the cotton/wick goes up a bit (each side) and folds a bit before going down to the feed holes for my decks that are bottom fed.

1) it prevents having that "gap" at the end of the coil that I see a lot of builders (youtubers) do as their wick is tugged downwards.
2) it helps the wicking as it acts as a small reservoir. Some decks allow for you to have a bit of extra padding on the sides that will hold quite a bit extra liquid without impairing the airflow at all.
3) it creates a little "safety cushion" between the coil and the bell's wall.
4) depending on the deck/tank, some extra wick padding like this can help prevent leakage.

What's important is to have it fluffy, to not overstuff the coil itself, and ensure that you're blocking the feed holes but without clogging them.

But for some reason, many learned wicking with a wrong approach because of such videos. You actually should have lots of wick at both ends of the coils.

 

[Eskie]

It just seems to flow nicer. The consistency is superb. I have other TC mods, but my Pico is the only one that does SS so looks like I'll be picking up another one.

And this is why I love temp control. It is a better vape experience for ME (not everyone). It does not mean that power mode is bad or that TC is always a better vape. I have setups which remain in wattage mode and are enjoyable. I do think experimenting with different techniques and being open to new approaches can help find what's best for you, or that what you're currently doing is still your preference. Lots of folks tried TC and didn't like for a variety of reasons and returned to power mode, which is fine, it's their choice.

In the 61 pages this thread has turned into in a few days, the one underlying finding is that overheating our vape juice even without a dry hit can still produce small amounts of toxic chemicals. Maybe. We also know from studies in people that vapers had far less Acrolein/VOCs (and Nitrosamines) than smokers (the Annals of Int. Med. article) with generic, or at least not identified vape hardware.

Will TC make you vape safer? We don't know. Will vaping a high temps results in more aldehyde formation? Yes. Is that enough to make you switch to a different vape style? We don't know.

We don't know is a valuable answer. It points the way to evaluating vaping in a direction that will help answer those "real world" questions we have. So far all points to vaping as far safer than smoking. More info might make it even safer. Again, we don't know that and hopefully will find out as more data is generated.

I do believe the vaping community does have to stop reacting to every study published as either a boon or a slam on vaping. We can't just accept and rave about positive findings while dissing negative findings. That's what ANTZ already does (in reverse) and we all know it is intellectually dishonest.

 

[mikepetro]

We tuck the wicks down into the juice channels. How often do we check to make sure the outer coils are pressed against the wick? I do that all the time in my Kayfuns. Every once in a while I'll get warmth in the vape from relaxed wick ends that fall downward from being tucked. I still get good vapor, but sensing too much warmth for 10 watts. That could be a low end creator of the bad stuff mixed into a good vape.

Yep, top side of end coil loop. I started putting extra "fluff" on the two coils ends.

 

[oplholik]

I started wicking this way a while back, and it definitely work better for me.

 

[classwife]

Ohhh !
I check my rayon wicks to make sure they didn't shrink or stretch out of the coil... and re-mush them in with 2 straight pins, one from each side - I kind of pick up a tad of wick with the pins and mush into the coil.

 

[zoiDman]

FINALLY DID IT!!! Made a SS coil just like I would my kanthal build and put it on my Pico and set it to 12 watts (my setting on power mode that I use with kanthal) at 360F and vape like I usually do. I did not get temp. protection message after puffing 3 times in a row (maybe more puffs, but that's not how I vape). So I guess I can say that using my kanthal coil build in power mode is well within safe temperatures.

Now I have a new problem..... I really like using TC!

I am Glad you got a chance to do some Real World experimenting with a set-up that Mirrors you Kanthal set-up. Because I know you were kinda Freaked Out by some of the stuff in this thread.

I am Also Very Glad you had the Opportunity to do it with SS on a more Modern TC Device. Because if you had done it using a 1st Generation TC device with Ni-200 wire, your experience might have been Different.

JMO - But I think a Lot of people who used Early TC Mods with Ni-200 got turned off to TC. And may Not realize how overall TC Technology has Improved. And the advent of SS Wire has made TC Much Easier and more Enjoyable experience.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

It just seems to flow nicer. The consistency is superb. I have other TC mods, but my Pico is the only one that does SS so looks like I'll be picking up another one.

Not only good to hear that you got TC working! But even better to hear that you enjoy it already!

The Pico has been a very solid mod.. if you ever look towards a 2 battery version, they now make the Pico in dual battery format, or something sleaker, the TC100W is the same chipset as far as I can tell, it's dirt cheap, sleak, and much easier to do the settings.. It's my go-to mod at this point (to the point that we have 6 of them at my house now, me using three of them).

 

[morningdew]

All very complicated, so many variables.

Few questions from me-

Why haven't previous tests identified this issue, sure there was the one which was discredited where they were burning ce4's, but other tests i have seen didn't identify this issue....?

I tend to build 3mm coils, around 0.7 - 1.0 oms, 24 gauge kanthal. Wick with cotton and vape between 12 and 16 watts. Draw time is usually 3-4 seconds. I chain vape sometimes. Wicking tends to be, at least i think, thick - any thinnner and i get juice spit back on pretty much all rda's and rta's. Airflow full open on snapdragons, kayfun 5 and rose v3.

When travelling i use a nautilus and gs air, both without tc.

Should i be considering shifting to temperature control? What's the likliehood i am currently exceeding safe temps, taking into account my build and airflow preferences.

As i vape exclusively nets, do any of the tc wires allow for dry burning?

As mentioned previously tc is based around an average across the coil, centre will always be hotter surely?, and therefore possibly exceeding safe temps regardless of the tc.

Would i be right in also thinking it's only at the point when a coil, briefly, exceeds the safe temp that the nasties are being released? If so perhaps actually not as bad, in relation to burning tobacco where release of nasties is a constant, as on initial impression...

Phew we truely are guinea pigs!

 

[440BB]

JMO - But I think a Lot of people who used Early TC Mods with Ni-200 got turned off to TC. And may Not realize how overall TC Technology has Improved. And the advent of SS Wire has made TC Much Easier and more Enjoyable experience.

I agree, and that early experience with nickel wire made me think TC was not ready for prime time. I'm sure SS wire will be much easier as some of us reconsider TC.

 

[cigatron]

I agree, and that early experience with nickel wire made me think TC was not ready for prime time. I'm sure SS wire will be much easier as some of us reconsider TC.

If choose to use SS and have a mod with adjusyable tcr I would recommend using 430SS. 316 can be fussy on some mods

 

[zoiDman]

I agree, and that early experience with nickel wire made me think TC was not ready for prime time. I'm sure SS wire will be much easier as some of us reconsider TC.

Yeah... My 1st Foray in TC was kinda a Flaming Train Wreck.

The Ni-200 Coils I built were Flimsy and Fragile. The Mod had a Very Funky interface. And I had No Way to adjust Wattage in TC. Could only set the Temp Limit. Ohms would Fluctuate. And sometimes TC would just Not Work. And when your Dumping 60watts into a Coil depending on TC to limit Temperature, and it doesn't, you get a Hit comparable to Inhaling a Burning Marshmallow. Exactly what TC was supposed to Prevent.

But that was an Inexpensive 1st Generation Mod. And that was using Ni-200.

Fortunately, as TC evolved and Prices fell, average price Mods started to include TC. And even though I hate the term "Game Changer", I think SS Coils were a Game Changer. Because they spanned both the VW and TC universe. And that made it Easy for OEM's to use SS in Pre-Made Coil Heads.

I still like using NiChrome 80 builds in some situations. But I have Migrated heavily to SS builds. And even though I don't use TC a lot. I can. Which I like.

 

[Eskie]

Phew we truely are guinea pigs!

Guinea pigs with opposable thumbs who can type.

Vaping is truly a disruptive technology. It has changed the landscape of tobacco use more than nay other development, including NRTs. All disruptive technologies present challenges and opportunities, and of course are threatening to the status quo. We really are the guinea pigs for a very new and rapidly growing industry. There will be lots of bumps, along with a few potential cliffs like over regulation of the market, but the fact is the changes have already occurred.

As to whether you should change to temp control based on all this limited evidence? No one knows. Yet.

 

[Johnnyvapor18]

Go back to page 1, watch the vids and read Mikes posts on the first few pages. Then come back here.

I did. I understand it now, but I still don't get how I can tell if my mods over 470 since I can't use tc because my tank doesn't have tc coils,

 

[CMD-Ky]

If choose to use SS and have a mod with adjusyable tcr I would recommend using 430SS. 316 can be fussy on some mods

I just ordered the 430 from unkamen a couple of days ago.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Ohhh !
I check my rayon wicks to make sure they didn't shrink or stretch out of the coil... and re-mush them in with 2 straight pins, one from each side - I kind of pick up a tad of wick with the pins and mush into the coil.

Nice tip, thanks.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Just saw this.. might be relevant to this whole topic: Dumb and dumber: the Portland State “science” crew strikes again! - Vaping360