New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Bonskibon]

With every tc build this is what I do:
- fire up the coil quickly in tc mode so that the cold resistance is read correctly (may not be necessary)
- switch over to vw at a low wattage
- pulse the coil to work out the hot spots and make sure that the coil heats up evenly
- switch back to tc, wick up and prime the coil, fill tank and vape

As long as all the connections are secure this has led to problem free tc vaping for me.

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I have since redid my "experiment" and did it correctly this time.

 

[KenD]

Well, yes and no. The biggest problem for me is the wires--most of them are questionable, as far as safety goes, and many (like nickel) are impossible to work with. Just look at kiba's post quoted above.

"Can someone please explain to me why all mods, particularly new ones coming out still have nickel and stainless 316? Ti I understand but does anyone actually use those? Theyre both awful in separate ways, SS316 is horribly inaccurate and nickel is very soft and taste like dirty coins... & all 3 shouldn't be dry burned unlike many of the better TC wires. Wouldn't it be more helpful to have NiFe52, Ti and SS 430 or at least 316L as the defaults? On my DNA's Ive deleted all of that other nonsense."

Stainless steel? I'm not convinced. I've read about all those different alloys, and all of them have issues. The only one that I see myself using right now is the 430, but I don't even know if I have a mod that comes with a tcr setting. I'll have to look into it. With Kanthal, I know (well, I'm pretty sure) that I'm safe--I know that when heated, Kanthal wire (iron-chromium-aluminum) builds up an aluminum oxide insulating coating on its outside surface that protects the individual coils from shorting and me from inhaling God knows what. So this knowledge is reassuring TO ME. Thanks, @MacTechVpr .

On the subject of that study that started this thread (and John's presentation)... My takeaway.

For starters, one swallow does not a summer make. This is but one study, funded internally through California Department of Public Health. At least two of the authors, (Principal Investigator?) Ping Wang and Kazukiyo Kumagai, are affiliated with Indoor Air Quality Program, Environmental Health Laboratory, California Department of Public Health. If that's not a conflict of interest I don't know what is. The study was not peer reviewed and published online only--AFAIK. The methodology of the study is also highly questionable--they forced eliquid into a cylinder? How does that even resemble real-life vaping conditions???? So color my highly suspicious.

Especially since the next video in your OP (by Kurt) seems to state the exact opposite. Kurt insists that all studies should be done using real-life vaping devices and 3rd gen only, as those are most commonly used nowadays and, according to his findings, produce negligible levels of aldehydes and other nasties. Honestly, I trust Kurt and Dr. Farsalinos much more than I trust California Dept. of Public Health. I hope Dr. F will chime in soon--maybe with his own study results.

As for John's presentation? Well, they make TC circuit boards, so of course they like the study. I'm not trying to insinuate anything, I love Evolv and their work, but my eyes are wide open.

Vaping is not safe--it's just safer than smoking. Vaping has risks. We don't know enough. But we're leaning. And learning is fun!

Again, thanks @mikepetro for the thread!

There's nothing to prove that Kanthal is safer than stainless steel.

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[Cosmic_Glaze]

Hmm wow to use temp control you have to learn to build your own coils? This seems so complicated . If you do something wrong would you harm yourself?

No you don't necessarily. Many tanks have pre built TC coils. The Nautilus has a Nickle TC coil... I never used it on mine I currently use the Kanthal ones.

 

[KenD]

Yes, I am offended....

And rightfully so

I was an enthusiast with new tech and I reviewed it and promoted the concept because I believed in it.
But you are entitled to your opinion.

I want to believe that most of you applaud you for this, and for starting this thread. I don't get why some feel the need to go on the war path, with very nasty accusations.

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[awsum140]

I'm sorry awsum140 , I think your response kind of flew over my head. I just don't understand. I tried the target guardian tank (0.5ohm coil)and the kangertech subtank mini (0.5 ohm coil) and found I disliked them no matter what wattage I tried, it felt like I had to do a direct lung hit with them or I couldn't get a puff at all at lower wattages.. I tried nautilis mini with 1.8 ohm coils and I enjoy that experience. I tried 1.2 ohm coils with the nautilis mini and found it felt too strong, with less taste, I had to go to 11-13 watts else I felt I wasn't getting a satisfying puff, then once I hit 12 watts it felt like too much at once.

Is there a way to replicate an expierence with nautilis mini 1.8 ohm coil at 8-11 watts with a different setup that allows temperature control?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that "resistance is futile". In the TC world, resistance, unless it's super low, is rarely, if ever, over an ohm. The principles that apply to subohming on kanthal and a VV/VW or mechanical mod just don't apply to TC mods.

I can only relate my own experience with my wife. She's a "tootle puffer" and was using Innokin, bottom coil, tanks. I built her a DNA200 and a DNA75, the DNA200 topped with a Fogger V4.1 and the DNA75 with an FEV V3, both with titanium coils, and she's more than happy with them. In fact, she rarely uses the VW/VV mods at all any more, preferring the TC stuff. She did have to "dial in" both temperature and power, but that took under ten hits.

 

[KenD]

2) stop aiming for uber low ohms, 0.2 should be the lowest and works great going up to 0.9ohm easily, TC works better with enough wire in there... SS needs more than NI and TI to register correctly, so single SS coils need to be as large as you can fit on your deck.

Yes, in principle. But if there's too much coil mass the mod may kick you out of tc mode because the resistance increases so slowly due to high ramp up time. The optimal coil mass and heat flux for the desired vape is the way to go, whether in tc or not.


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[Eskie]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that "resistance is futile". In the TC world, resistance, unless it's super low, is rarely, if ever, over an ohm. The principles that apply to subohming on kanthal and a VV/VW or mechanical mod just don't apply to TC mods.

I can only relate my own experience with my wife. She's a "tootle puffer" and was using Innokin, bottom coil, tanks. I built her a DNA200 and a DNA75, the DNA200 topped with a Fogger V4.1 and the DNA75 with an FEV V3, both with titanium coils, and she's more than happy with them. In fact, she rarely uses the VW/VV mods at all any more, preferring the TC stuff. She did have to "dial in" both temperature and power, but that took under ten hits.

I think another way to look at it is you can have a "low watt, mtl" tootle puffer vape in TC as the resistance is no longer a factor for that experience. All that would matter would be the airflow. So long as a similar airflow can be obtained, a similar vape experience will be obtained.

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

Until the liquid is boiling, no vapor is coming off, so getting vapor at a lower temp would be good. i.e. a lower boiling point is better.

Is that a fact that no vapor comes of till the boiling point? Does Pg/Vg act differently than Water? Just wondering? There is water some in it? You do not have to be at the Boiling point 212f for water to be releasing vapor. Convection of water starts at a Simmer at 180f vaper is released. You can also physically see it way before that.

 

[KenD]

I got the Pico because of it's small size. I liked the idea that it was TC in case I wanted to explore that route. Was not aware TC on it was flawed. I will be looking into a good TC device so I will at least have one on hand.

Tc on the Pico works just fine. Overall, Joyetech/Wismec/Eleaf mods have good and fairly accurate tc. Make sure you read the manual properly.

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[Eskie]

Yes, in principle. But if there's too much coil mass the mod may kick you out of tc mode because the resistance increases so slowly due to high ramp up time. The optimal coil mass and heat flux for the desired vape is the way to go, whether in tc or not.


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That is a possibility, but will vary with the board used. I routinely use my SS Claptons/fused Claptons in TC on my DNA mods and have never been kicked out to power mode. I do use a preheat as I hate waiting for the coil mas to reach temp, and that would provide an advantage over TC without a preheat ability, but larger mass coils can be used so long as that build style is adjusted for.

 

[DPLongo22]

I bet that my mind's in far dirtier places than you'd imagined...

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LOL!!!!

I guess I should have thought that one through better than I did. No, nothing dirty.

Much more in line with concerns conveyed here (thread), but nothing that can be spoken of here (forum) either.

So - blizzard's coming....

 

[zoiDman]

It is my understanding that it's the purest of the available alloys, but what do I know. I'm just trying to educate myself just like everybody else. Don't shoot.

...

"Purest" probably Isn't the best way to Describe 430 Stainless Steel. Because 430 SS is just a Particular Alloy that is part of the 4xx Series Family of 'Stainless Steels".

It is no More/Less Pure than say 316/316L or 15-5. 430 just happens to contain No Nickel. It also has some Slightly Different Thermal and Electrical Properties than 316/316L.

Here are some Specs on 430 SS

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=6d8739fc99da4b17b214b72932a66ea9

And here are some for 316L SS

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=a2d0107bf958442e9f8db6dc9933fe31

If the Goal is to Use a SS Alloy that contains No Nickel, then Yeah, 430 SS is an Alloy that People should consider.

 

[zoiDman]

Actually you get vapour before the liquid starts to "boil". You provide energy to the the liquid, hence altering it's vapour pressure, thus passing into the gas state below its boiling point. It gets a bit complicated because we're not talking about a closed system, which is why I dislike the study with the steel chamber.

...

But Doesn't VG have a Very Low Vapor Pressure? So it is not very Volatile?

Would a Vaper be able to get a "Decent" Hit if their Wire Temp was much below the Boiling Point of VG?

 

[cigatron]

That is a possibility, but will vary with the board used. I routinely use my SS Claptons/fused Claptons in TC on my DNA mods and have never been kicked out to power mode. I do use a preheat as I hate waiting for the coil mas to reach temp, and that would provide an advantage over TC without a preheat ability, but larger mass coils can be used so long as that build style is adjusted for.

Re preheat: True. I still don't use preheat even for fused claptons though. I'm a chain vaper so the 1 sec ramp time on a cold coil doesn't bother me much.

Re tc kick out: Maybe I don't build coils with enough mass to have that happen?

28gx2 316L SS/38g KA1, 7 Wraps, 3mm, .25 ohms

 

[awsum140]

I think another way to look at it is you can have a "low watt, mtl" tootle puffer vape in TC as the resistance is no longer a factor for that experience. All that would matter would be the airflow. So long as a similar airflow can be obtained, a similar vape experience will be obtained.

I'm not even all that sure about air flow being a large factor. I drilled out the air holes in the Foggers she's using to 3mm, from the sides in and deck down, and she doesn't close them up at all with the control ring. The FEV V3 is stock, though, and has the restrictor plug removed so it's a, single, 2.5mm air hole but it is also a single coil device versus the Fogger being a dual coil. She loves them both, maybe the FEV a little more 'cause it can be filled just by pouring straight out of the bottle and holds more than a Fogger.

 

[mikepetro]

Is that a fact that no vapor comes of till the boiling point? Does Pg/Vg act differently than Water? Just wondering? There is water some in it? You do not have to be at the Boiling point 212f for water to be releasing vapor. Convection of water starts at a Simmer at 180f vaper is released. You can also physically see it way before that.

Let me rephrase, no vapor of consequence from a vaping point of view.

 

[dwcraig1]

"Purest" probably Isn't the best way to Describe 430 Stainless Steel. Because 430 SS is just a Particular Alloy that is part of the 4xx Series Family of 'Stainless Steels".

It is no More/Less Pure than say 316/316L or 15-5. 430 just happens to contain No Nickel. It also has some Slightly Different Thermal and Electrical Properties than 316/316L.

Here are some Specs on 430 SS

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=6d8739fc99da4b17b214b72932a66ea9

And here are some for 316L SS

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=a2d0107bf958442e9f8db6dc9933fe31

If the Goal is to Use a SS Alloy that contains No Nickel, then Yeah, 430 SS is an Alloy that People should consider.

Not all 430 SS is nickel free....just felt that should be mentioned.

 

[soulseek]

@soulseek ,couldn't there be some temporary form of heat equilibrium taking place in non-tc devices until the juice supply diminishes if the wattage is set low enough?
Isn't there a continual heat equilibrium taking place in tc mode as the mod throttles power based on juice and air availability?
Not saying there is, just wanted your take on it.

Not really, since it is an open system. Roughly speaking, you could approach something close to a constant gradient in a TC device but even then you're making lots of approximations and assumptions.

 

[cigatron]

Not really, since it is an open system. Roughly speaking, you could approach something close to a constant gradient in a TC device but even then you're making lots of approximations and assumptions.

Close in a tc device? +/-5°f at the coil on a dna device as measured in escribe's device monitor. Not saying that's super accurate but it does give me the assurance that my coil isn't going out of control during a pull as with a non-tc device having the wattage turned up to high, the airflow turned down to far and/or the wick drying out.
One thing I feel very confident about is that with a properly set up tc device the liquid temp will never exceed my set temp. I guess that's the most important part of the tc vs. non-tc discussion to me.

 

[zoiDman]

Not all 430 SS is nickel free....just felt that should be mentioned.

Unless it is Designated something else, it Should Be.

Here's an Example of something that can have some Trace Amounts of Nickel in it...

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=c37fdf7f1b2e4b60aa4d50fbff156fc3

But that isn't 430. It's 430FR.