New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[kates]

.

Its not that I dont accept Dr F's tests, because I do. The thing is that all of his tests were based on wattage, and wattage alone does not answer the temperature questions. I think it is well within the realm of possibility, given all the combinations of mods and attys, that someone could vape at wattages that generate temperatures that Wang is saying could generate nasties, without tasting like devil's .....

But Dr F's 'dry puff phenom.' is not about wattage - it's based on the relationship between 'dry puffs' (vaper's unpleasant experience) and measured emissions. The other studies mentioned are about wattage and measured emissions. If you accept Dr F's 'dry puff', look at the studies of wattage and emissions of 3rd generation tanks, (with the correct testing parameters for the tanks etc.) I believe you can say that tootle puffers using moderate wattage (by todays's standards), 3rd generation tanks and not getting dry hits are very,very unlikely to be encountering any concerning levels of formeld. etc. There is clear evidence and studies to support this. If you get a dry hit (above scenario) you will encounter nasties - but as you won't continue to vape (as it's not pleasant and evidenced by Dr F's 'dry puff') it will be minimal exposure. If you smoke you will be exposed to it every puff of every cigarette you smoke. Harm reduction.
Everything else - what happens if you tootle puff or cloud chase with TC/ does the 'dry puff' apply at much higher wattages - no idea. I still struggle to see how Wang's study showed anything of value in relation to coil temperature (no coil involved) or vaping but I can see there needs to be more studies with TC/ higher wattage vaping.

 

[Domejunky]

Not so fast.

SS316--too much nickel. Is that a bad thing? Who knows?

SS316L--won't give accurate temp readings on preset SS modes, which are tuned for ss316. That a problem? No idea.

SS430--better but the wire is springy and requires a tcr setting and a lot of thinking.

How am I doing so far? [emoji38]

The more you know.....

During my experiments with Nickel this week, I got sent a free sample of 304 SS. Works as well as Nickel on my DNA mods, better than 316L. Would definitely be my choice on mods that have SS and TCR options...

 

[Katya]

During my experiments with Nickel this week, I got sent a free sample of 304 SS. Works as well as Nickel on my DNA mods, better than 316L. Would definitely be my choice on mods that have SS and TCR options...

Alas, ss304 contains 18% chromium and 8% nickel and may corrode easily, if I understand it correctly. SS316 contains 16% chromium, 10% nickel and 2% molybdenum (to prevent corrosion).

I don't know if I want to deal with all those (unknown to me, potential) issues when I know that my Kanthal wire is fully insulated by its protective layer of aluminum oxide.

 

[tara81]

I know nothing about mig cig 21, but it looks like a cigalike, so you should be careful with it. No TC and probably very thin wire. Not much airflow? I'm speculating, of course.



Short answer--no.

Long(er) answer: you would have to rebuild your 1.8Ω (Kanthal) coil with Ti or SS wire. Not easy, as it is a vertical build.

Hmm wow to use temp control you have to learn to build your own coils? This seems so complicated . If you do something wrong would you harm yourself?

 

[Domejunky]

Alas, ss304 contains 18% chromium and 8% nickel and may corrode easily, if I understand it correctly. SS316 contains 16% chromium, 10% nickel and 2% molybdenum (to prevent corrosion).

I don't know if I want to deal with all those (unknown to me, potential) issues when I know that my Kanthal wire is fully insulated by its protective layer of aluminum oxide.

Interesting. What's the word on 430?

Corrosion may not be the same as toxicity though, just lower longevity...

 

[Katya]

Hmm wow to use temp control you have to learn to build your own coils?

Not necessarily--you can buy premade TC coils (Ni, Ti and SS316) in blister packs, ready to go. But I haven't seen any TC Nautilus coils.

ETA: I found those--but they are nickel.

Aspire Nautilus Nickel Ni200 Replacement Coils - Vapor Authority

This seems so complicated .

If you do something wrong would you harm yourself?

That is the question!

Have you read the thread? Or at least the OP? We've been trying to figure it out.

 

[Katya]

Interesting. What's the word on 430?

It is my understanding that it's the purest of the available alloys, but what do I know. I'm just trying to educate myself just like everybody else. Don't shoot.

Corrosion may not be the same as toxicity though, just lower longevity...

Well, I'm more worried about metal particles finding their way into vapor... But I really don't know. We had one big scare some time ago--with all kinds of experts, including material engineers, metallurgists, chemists and (at least) one cardiologist debating the issue with some gusto. The said cardiologist, Dr. Farsalinos, was supposed to conduct a wire study--but I understand never raised enough money to complete it. Or maybe he's still working on it--not sure.

That was also an epic thread here on ECF... The fur was flying!

The end of microcoils?

 

[kates]

I suppose you could propose that Dr. F et al used wattage/ kanthal to show that 'dry puff' prevented vapers exposure to formeld. etc but Wangs study showed temperature control produced levels when vapers weren't experiencing this 'dry puff' - therefore tc somehow masks this indicator found in wattage vaping?

 

[dwcraig1]

Interesting. What's the word on 430?

Corrosion may not be the same as toxicity though, just lower longevity...

I use probably close to a liter of juice per coil, re-wick around 100ml.
Using twisted 28 gauge Unkamen's ss430.

 

[mikepetro]

ok great! now is lowering the boiling point better or worse vis-a-vis the topic? or maybe does not matter at all

Until the liquid is boiling, no vapor is coming off, so getting vapor at a lower temp would be good. i.e. a lower boiling point is better.

 

[tara81]

Thank you Katy's is nickel coils safe to use ?
I mean if you make your own coils, is it easy to do something wrong to the point of tank explosion?

I noticed the coils are 0.15 ohms. Is there any hope for people who do not like sub ohming ? I tried sub ohming before and hated it .

 

[kates]

I suppose you could propose that Dr. F et al used wattage/ kanthal to show that 'dry puff' prevented vapers exposure to formeld. etc but Wangs study showed temperature control produced levels when vapers weren't experiencing this 'dry puff' - therefore tc somehow masks this indicator found in wattage vaping?

...and if this is the supposition - then tc looks be the problem rather than the answer?
(I don't actually think this is a valid supposition as I don't agree with my above summary of Wang's study - I just think it's as valid as any other supposition using the results from Wang's study to link their temperature results with tc vaping)

 

[Zakillah]

Until the liquid is boiling, no vapor is coming off, so getting vapor at a lower temp would be good. i.e. a lower boiling point is better.

Glycerin produces white mist long before you reach its boiling point, though. I have read from experiments that have shown you can fully evaporate Glycerin on a 200°C warm heating plate.
You also don't need to heat your laundry to 100°C to dry it.

 

[Aal_]

Until the liquid is boiling, no vapor is coming off, so getting vapor at a lower temp would be good. i.e. a lower boiling point is better.

I assume in that case that the VG does not boil but the VG particles are suspended in the vapor form of the whole juice?

 

[soulseek]

Actually you get vapour before the liquid starts to "boil". You provide energy to the the liquid, hence altering it's vapour pressure, thus passing into the gas state below its boiling point. It gets a bit complicated because we're not talking about a closed system, which is why I dislike the study with the steel chamber.

I also find this measurement of coil temperature pretty pointless. Vaping is an open system with constant airflow, you don't reach thermal equilibrium and you don't have constant pressure.
If the objective is to determine the accuracy of TC control, DNA devices are accurate enough. Fill your atomiser with 100% water and even though your limit might be 240C, you'll see that your coil never goes above 100C, while the wick is wet.

Of course, until we know more, the best thing to do, as various people have advised, is to get a good TC device and not vape above 250C if you're vaping 100%VG (this is the extreme case as noone does this).
I would also advise to be a bit conservative. TC control is an estimate of the average temperature of your entire coil (including the legs). It's very probable that you're getting higher temperatures at various spots in your coil (most probably the centre). This is also one reason why I don't vape at max wattage and have no preheat.

 

[awsum140]

Thank you Katy's is nickel coils safe to use ?
I mean if you make your own coils, is it easy to do something wrong to the point of tank explosion?

I noticed the coils are 0.15 ohms. Is there any hope for people who do not like sub ohming ? I tried sub ohming before and hated it .

That's kind of an "apples and oranges" thing. Subohming to me, with TC wires anyway, is kind of a misnomer. It's, basically, impossible to build a coil using Ni or Ti wire and NOT have it come out under an ohm. To make a coil under an ohm with kanthal you'd only need a couple of wraps while with TC wire you'd need tens of wraps, probably 20 or more (check in Steam Engine). Basically, the resistance doesn't really equate to "subohming" in the TC wire world. Someone, here in this thread, experimented with SS and duplicated the performance of a kanthal coil that had a resistance of over one ohm. It's just a question of setting the power/temperature correctly for the coil and how you like your vape. I have a couple of VW only devices and use kanthal on them and easily duplicate the vape I like between them and my TC mods.

 

[Zakillah]

Basically, the resistance doesn't really equate to "subohming" in the TC wire world.

Resistance relates to "subohming" only on Mechs. Seriously, as soon as you vape on a regulated device, TC or not, you´d do good to just forget about the resistance altogether.

 

[DaveP]

That view is too US-centric. The FDA does not control what happens in most of the world. They don't even control what's developed in the US, only what's commercially marketed here.

Exactly. Tobacco use is rampant across the world. Anywhere there's smokers, there's a potential market for vaping devices. As long as devices aren't banned for import there will be vapes in America. OTOH, if vaping succumbs to the FDA it's a given that tobacco sales should die the same death. If they don't then that's proof that tobacco is being kept around for its tax and tobacco settlement value. Vaping is a threat to that cash cow.

 

[tara81]

I'm sorry awsum140 , I think your response kind of flew over my head. I just don't understand. I tried the target guardian tank (0.5ohm coil)and the kangertech subtank mini (0.5 ohm coil) and found I disliked them no matter what wattage I tried, it felt like I had to do a direct lung hit with them or I couldn't get a puff at all at lower wattages.. I tried nautilis mini with 1.8 ohm coils and I enjoy that experience. I tried 1.2 ohm coils with the nautilis mini and found it felt too strong, with less taste, I had to go to 11-13 watts else I felt I wasn't getting a satisfying puff, then once I hit 12 watts it felt like too much at once.

Is there a way to replicate an expierence with nautilis mini 1.8 ohm coil at 8-11 watts with a different setup that allows temperature control?

 

[DaveP]

I'm sorry awsum140 , I think your response kind of flew over my head. I just don't understand. I tried the target guardian tank (0.5ohm coil)and the kangertech subtank mini (0.5 ohm coil) and found I disliked them no matter what temperature I tried, it felt like I had to do a direct lung hit with them. I tried nautilis mini with 1.8 ohm coils and I enjoy that experience. I tried 1.2 ohm coils with the nautilis mini and found it felt too strong, with less taste.

Is there a way to replicate an expierence with nautilis mini 1.8 ohm coil with a different setup that allows temperature control?

Find a Kayfun Lite Plus V2 on sale and give it a try for Nautilus like flavor and great MTL hits. You'll have to wind your own coils, but that can be a plus. A year or two worth of coil wire and cotton or rayon will cost you $10 to $15. Kayfuns are under $20 if you can find them on sale.

With the Chinese New Year winding down, stock is hard to find, but here's an EHPro KFL Plus V2 for $16.95.
EHPro Kayfun Lite Plus V2 | Madvapes

Or the original Kayfun Lite Plus for $9.95
EHPro Colored Kayfun Lite Plus | Madvapes

I liked the Nautilus and still own one that I haven't vaped in about 3 years, but replacing a coil every day or two was ridiculously expensive.