New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Katya]

SS430 is the most accurate due to its high tcr value. It runs fine on my 350j with the manual tcr adjustment set to .00142.

O Lord.......................

tcr set to .00142?

Slow down, guys. I'm trying to learn new tricks--after 7 years of vaping.

http://www.tasteyourjuice.com/wordpress/archives/10076

I guess I'm saying WTF to TCR.

 

[90VG]

Now that's a great question. Unfortunately I'm not a physics major. There is one thing I'm fairly certain about; when liquids are converted to vapor there is a cooling effect. Does that mean that the vapor leaving the coil is cooler than the coil itself? I think it is because it's evident through experimentation that an increase in vapor production by increasing power(up to a point) aids in cooling the coil.
The questions I have are how much cooler and what are the contributing factors to that temp delta?

The thing is, you aren't turning the VG/PG/Nicotine into vapor. You are flash steaming the water out of it, and that is causing little explosions that break the juice into tiny particles that you are breathing.

PG boils at 188C
VG boils at 290C

Water is about 100C, depending on altitude/pressure.

It's the first thing to go.

 

[Katya]

Hi Tweety. Good post! We could use her in this thread.
But...I did say boiling point. Maybe the temp I show is wrong. Got it from google and several sources...

So I'm still confused. I get that other additives will lower the BP though.

The idea is, in a nutshell, that you don't need to bring your PG or VG to the boiling point to achieve vaporization--the process starts at much lower temps, depending on many other factors.

 

[AttyPops]

The idea is, in a nutshell, that you don't need to bring your PG or VG to the boiling point to achieve vaporization--the process starts at much lower temps, depending on many other factors.

Which gives even more credence to the idea that we don't usually produce high enough temps to cause all these laboratory-induced-nasties in the first place.

My head still hurts.

Good luck folks. I'm just sticking with "as low as possible that works". But maybe I'll change my PG/VG ratio a bit. I do add some water (not much at all...maybe 1-5 %).

I think TC is a good idea for consistency though.

 

[Katya]

Which gives even more credence to the idea that we don't usually produce high enough temps to cause all these laboratory-induced-nasties in the first place.

My head still hurts.

Good luck folks. I'm just sticking with "as low as possible that works". But maybe I'll change my PG/VG ratio a bit. I do add some water (not much at all...maybe 1-5 %).

Baby steps, Atty. Baby steps.

I'm going to order some ss wire--as soon as I figure out my tcr.

But not now--my head hurts, too.

Thanks, @mikepetro !

 

[AttyPops]

Baby steps, Atty. Baby steps.

I'm going to order some ss wire--as soon as I figure out my tcr.

But not now--my head hurts, too.

Thanks, @mikepetro !

Yeah, but this is ticking me off.

This is very unscientific, I'm not even sure what nic level I'm at (suspect it's about 10mg/ml) and 10% PG + some water. I just eyeballed this last batch of DIY so .... I vape unflavored.

OK, on this device, with this coil, and mostly VG juice (I'd say 80% VG)....
Clearing the chamber between settings (puff with no power)

110 C - Nothing.
120 C - Nothing.
130 C - slight wisp maybe (full air flow)...like barely a trace of vapor.
140 C - Trace
150 C - Slightly more....like a super ultra-light
160 C - Started to actually get some trace TH.
170 C - Something like a mediocre cig-a-like
180 C - Interesting...closer to a "real" hit.
190 C - A little better...as expected.
200 C - Vapable. Started to get some background flavor. Is that good or bad? Is that "nasties" or not?
205 C - Better volume, TH.
210 C - What I've been testing at for hours. OK. "Feels" like it's there. I actually like:
215 C - Better. More TH and "fullness". But it's a bit more...."irritating". But we ex-smokers are kinda looking for that feeling.

:/

Now I wonder what all that means to me.

What do other TC users normally vape at?

 

[brewbear]

I use kanthal wire so how should I use TC mode with that? I use 28g with 8 wraps on 2.5 jig that gives me 1.6 ohms that I vape at 12w.

Look into mods by Hohm Tech ( the G2 or Slice) since they're the only ones I know of capable of TC on Kanthal.

 

[brewbear]

The only mods I know of that can do TC with Kanthal are the Hohm Tech mods. I have 4 of the G2's but haven't tried Kanthal on them yet. I am currently using SS316 in all 5 of my mods that are in daily rotation.

It works and if you did the latest update, it is even better.

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

Single coil RDA .57 ohms, 30 watts, SS316l, 420 F, on a Pico...... I am not even hitting 420 F...tried it in wattage feels like the same hit????? 3 back to back hits none even hit 420F or Temp Protection?? What does that mean, this all very confusing I usually vape In wattage mode. At 35 watts finally hit Temp Protection on 2nd hit but that was back to back as fast and biggest hits I could take???

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

It works and if you did the latest update, it is even better.

Is it Mac Compatible for updates? ( The Hohn Tech Mods )

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

To help clarify some previous questions, boiling point, flash point etc etc..

First of all a liquid does not need to reach it's boiling point to evaporate, leave a cup of water in a room that's 80F and eventually it will all evaporate away, that's how we get our vapor and a lower temperature than VG's boiling point..

So you have two things in the science world the Flash Point (The point at which the vapors coming off a solution will ignite) and then you have the Auto Ignition Point and that's the point the liquid will light/burn and stay lit, to produce formaldehyde etc there needs to be combustion, it the actual act of burning that produces the carcinogens, so unless you are actually applying fire to your atomizer as it's heating there's no combustion and only the auto ignition temperature applies to us..

Now I can't speak for flavors since I don't know their auto ignition points but the auto ignition temperatures of PG/VG is pretty high. around 400°C for VG and 370°C for PG. There's no way we could actually tolerate those temperatures, it would quite literally burn our throats.. Seriously how many vapers you know that vape at 700°F or even come close to it??

There are several factors that will cause production of carcinogens and it's not necessarily just dry hits.. Hot legs/spots, anyone that owns a RDA knows you need to fix hot spots on a coil usually by raking to get the loops/coils to seat better, when you look at those hot spots while you're pulsing sometimes they can get white hot and that right there will go well beyond 400°C

Then there's the standard dry hit (obviously happens more in wattage mode) there's no liquid to cool the coil so the coil just keeps heating up and burns what's left of the liquid or anything that has caramelized into it (usually sweeteners) along with the wicking material (Cotton 400f) combustion happens and carcinogens are produced..

Hope this helps anyone

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

Should also point out that having stuff caramelized into your coil will slow wicking down and allow for your coil to reach higher temperatures so technically sweet juice could be worse for you if you don't change your wick often..

 

[kbeam418]

Yeah, but this is ticking me off.

This is very unscientific, I'm not even sure what nic level I'm at (suspect it's about 10mg/ml) and 10% PG + some water. I just eyeballed this last batch of DIY so .... I vape unflavored.

OK, on this device, with this coil, and mostly VG juice (I'd say 80% VG)....
Clearing the chamber between settings (puff with no power)

110 C - Nothing.
120 C - Nothing.
130 C - slight wisp maybe (full air flow)...like barely a trace of vapor.
140 C - Trace
150 C - Slightly more....like a super ultra-light
160 C - Started to actually get some trace TH.
170 C - Something like a mediocre cig-a-like
180 C - Interesting...closer to a "real" hit.
190 C - A little better...as expected.
200 C - Vapable. Started to get some background flavor. Is that good or bad? Is that "nasties" or not?
205 C - Better volume, TH.
210 C - What I've been testing at for hours. OK. "Feels" like it's there. I actually like:
215 C - Better. More TH and "fullness". But it's a bit more...."irritating". But we ex-smokers are kinda looking for that feeling.

:/

Now I wonder what all that means to me.

What do other TC users normally vape at?

Usually around 450-500 F for me. On the kf 5 the dna 200 usually runs around 20-25 watts, the griffin usually hovers around 40-65. The vape taste fantastic.

 

[sofarsogood]

This is a great discussion, sophmore physics class.

I'm puzzled by the climbing temperature after each puff in the study data. I test for that with a stand alone ohm meter. What I find is my coil returns to resting temperature very very fast, Would that be because more liquid is flowing to the coil and cooling it and doing that fast because the coil has so little mass and because I'm not firing? I wish more people would run firmware that reports last puff info and report it here. I only use one atomizer.

I watched a few of the viideos and given the stakes for us i wouldn't buy a used car from any of them. Thats not a scientific observation.

 

[kbeam418]

This is a great discussion, sophmore physics class.

I'm puzzled by the climbing temperature after each puff in the study data. I test for that with a stand alone ohm meter. What I find is my coil returns to resting temperature very very fast, Would that be because more liquid is flowing to the coil and cooling it and doing that fast because the coil has so little mass and because I'm not firing? I wish more people would run firmware that reports last puff info and report it here. I only use one atomizer.

I watched a few of the viideos and given the stakes for us i wouldn't buy a used car from any of them. Thats not a scientific observation.

Here's my (crappy non-science) theory; the liguid continues to cool the coil after you stop firing. You can test this out by dry firing a coil. A 24 gauge coil will hold heat for around two minutes (very rough estimate), apply liguid to it and it's cool to the touch within a few seconds. Mass obviously plays a huge role; the thicker the wire the more heat it absorbs and it'll hold that heat longer.

 

[Verb]

A variable missing from this discussion and far from a vaping value in the experiment is the amount of time the substance was heated. Was the substance heated further by the walls of the stainless steel tube after turning to gas or aerosol?

200ml/min is hardly any air movement. I find that to be of concern.

I mainly vape unflavored VG + nic. If this interpretation is correct, I would be getting dosed pretty hard every day. But, I'm not. Without flavoring, I would easily taste and feel those levels of aldehyde production.

The study using actual modern vape gear properly showing the production of aldehydes does not exist.

 

[cigatron]

To help clarify some previous questions, boiling point, flash point etc etc..

First of all a liquid does not need to reach it's boiling point to evaporate, leave a cup of water in a room that's 80F and eventually it will all evaporate away, that's how we get our vapor and a lower temperature than VG's boiling point..

So you have two things in the science world the Flash Point (The point at which the vapors coming off a solution will ignite) and then you have the Auto Ignition Point and that's the point the liquid will light/burn and stay lit, to produce formaldehyde etc there needs to be combustion, it the actual act of burning that produces the carcinogens, so unless you are actually applying fire to your atomizer as it's heating there's no combustion and only the auto ignition temperature applies to us..

Now I can't speak for flavors since I don't know their auto ignition points but the auto ignition temperatures of PG/VG is pretty high. around 400°C for VG and 370°C for PG. There's no way we could actually tolerate those temperatures, it would quite literally burn our throats.. Seriously how many vapers you know that vape at 700°F or even come close to it??

There are several factors that will cause production of carcinogens and it's not necessarily just dry hits.. Hot legs/spots, anyone that owns a RDA knows you need to fix hot spots on a coil usually by raking to get the loops/coils to seat better, when you look at those hot spots while you're pulsing sometimes they can get white hot and that right there will go well beyond 400°C

Then there's the standard dry hit (obviously happens more in wattage mode) there's no liquid to cool the coil so the coil just keeps heating up and burns what's left of the liquid or anything that has caramelized into it (usually sweeteners) along with the wicking material (Cotton 400f) combustion happens and carcinogens are produced..

Hope this helps anyone

Auto Igintion? In TC I can turn my mod
up to 600°f with no airflow and nothing catches on fire.
The tests for carbonyls didn't mention combustion of either the pg or vg. According to the graphs you do not have to have combustion to create carcinogenic compounds.

Now my head hurts

 

[Fozzy71]

Is it Mac Compatible for updates? ( The Hohn Tech Mods )

I do not think so - Hohm Wrecker G2 | Hohm Tech, Incorporated - Hohm Tech, Incorporated

But there are free ways to install Windows on MAC so you could update it.

It works and if you did the latest update, it is even better.

Yes, I watched some reviews/tests and plan to give it a try some day as I have a number of reels of Kanthal that have been collecting dust since I got into TC using SS. I am really loving the vape off the G2. I have 2 in rotation, 2 in the stash, and sorta want to buy a few more if they are still on sale when my new credit card arrives.

 

[David Wolf]

Yet at 25 watts on the subtank, it was less than 1% and less than 0.1% that of the ce4 at any power level.

WE NEED to stop thinking of this as a power related situation.

This is coil temperature dependent ONLY.

And thinner wire gets WAY HOTTER WAY FASTER. With FAR LESS POWER!!!!!!!!

This means TOOTLE PUFFERS are at a FAR HIGHER danger.

Tapatyped

Except one slides list the Aspire Nautilus as in the gen 3 very low carcinogens category of gen 3 devices. Oops it's not tootle puffing, it's not subohm, its temperature. And VG is much higher than PG at higher temps. Per these charts.

 

[KenD]

So the only solution is to make SS-316 coils since ni-200 and Titanium are not risk free wires...

It's extremely unlikely that nickel or titanium will release anything dangerous at tc temperatures. You'd pretty much need to glow them red for any danger to be possible.

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