Harm reduction..........
You're already participating in it whether or not you use tc.
That's the goal for me.
You're already participating in it whether or not you use tc.
That's the goal for me.
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
- Thread starter mikepetro
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where is the conflict?nowhere does that study claim that vaping is 100% safe! imo, vaping will always be found safer than smoking; there is way too much anecdotal evidence to ever dispute that claim!
but we're at the point now where quantifying 'safer' comes into play. i always knew that some risk factors would be found and all that evolv is saying is that the evidence is starting to show high temps is making vaping less safe than what it could be.
so, what's a vaper to do? it's really very simple - you take the info, evaluate it and make up your mind how much it will affect your vaping style.
for some people, like willy, who need to minimize the risks as much as possible that info is enough to dial down the temps to make sure he is staying in what appears to be the safe zone atm!
i sure hope that nobody here is so blind as to be convinced no other risk factors will be associated with vaping sooner or later!!!!!
Exactly!!! Best post so far. Thank You Tibs!
I know they are only your opinions.
I'm just looking for a general consensus either way. I'm fairly certain, with this particular subject, there are many following this thread and wondering the same question.
Who exactly did this study?
I vape at the lowest voltage (ProVari didn't do watts for a long time) and definitely a 'tootle puffer'. As long as I don't let my tank run dry, no dry hits.
shrug...
I have lowered my nic
I don't vape low res or high watts
I have decreased greatly the amount of flavoring I use in my mixes and even vape mostly unflavored.
I have done all of this to decrease my 'risk'.
If TC can help me take it a step further (and have always believed that temperature is important) then of course I want to take that next/extra step.
Will I get rid of my Mechs or ProVaris ? ohellno !
I have lowered my nic
I don't vape low res or high watts
I have decreased greatly the amount of flavoring I use in my mixes and even vape mostly unflavored.
I have done all of this to decrease my 'risk'.
If TC can help me take it a step further (and have always believed that temperature is important) then of course I want to take that next/extra step.
Will I get rid of my Mechs or ProVaris ? ohellno !
From the comments I've seen I doubt few took the time to watch the videos and read the data in your first two posts Mike.
I think some read the title and drew a conclusion.
From the comments I've seen I doubt few took the time to watch the videos and read the data in your first two posts Mike.
Well that video is an amazing watch !
Like you I use a only a provari and vape at 3.3V. I only vape about 1.8-2 mls/day so no chain vaping.
Like you I'm wondering if I should worry.
IMO No. If what you are doing now with your vaping is keeping you off cigarettes and you can honestly say you feel loads better than when smoking, and you don't intentionally vape to produce dry hits(ugh) then until more studies are done to disprove your own findings then no.
These types of studies and the 'conclusions' are not new news. They have been saying the same type of BS since I can remember. No one vapes in the real world the way they are getting these 'results'. That is why I have said, until I see rl demo's on how they reached their conclusions, then they are the ones blowing 'smoke'.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. Jean Kerr
I vape at 7.5 watts ... 3-4 second puffs with DIY eLiquid @10% flavour. None of this concerns me, I've had like 2 dry hits in the last 3+ years (both times were my fault ... I thought I could get one more hit from a visibly empty tank).
IMO, the only winner on TC will be BT and their pod style cigalikes.
There is an agenda happening against open tank vaping ... they will eradicate it from the market.
IMO, the only winner on TC will be BT and their pod style cigalikes.
There is an agenda happening against open tank vaping ... they will eradicate it from the market.
Hopefully mikepetro can let us know but it would seem there were two studies and many graphs that I would imagine were taken from the first video?
I would guess that evolv had a large contribution to the study, but whoever funded the study should have no predetermined favoured result.
The second video is of no consequence to me and doesn't represent a vapor I know. CE4??. I hear that they were rubbish anyway.
The first video which I watched from mikepetro's suggestion of 6 min seemed to be the musings of a guy who would wish for many more people to begin buying temperature control devices.
Coincidentally, he himself works with a company which predominantly sells temperature control devices.
Biased or unbiased?
Like I stated. I personally, will wait for an unbiased, researched medical opinion from a company who have no alterior motives (except obviously money so long as it's not provided by the anti or pro vaping lobby).
I know they are only your opinions.
I'm fairly certain, with this particular subject, there are many following this thread and wondering the same question.
Who exactly did this study?
In this thread, I dont think you will find a "consensus".
IMHO, you dont need to "worry" if:
- you are using a Gen3+ atty with good wicking
- You are not pushing the limits somehow, and most know if they are.
hi tibz ... yeah i know ... sorry i meant even safer than smoking! I have been vaping for 6 years now. What if during those 6 years i was always above 470?
That's how I felt when I was told I had throat cancer, my thought was, did I bring this on with my vaping? I wanted to see the best oncologist in my area, I went to Upstate University in Syracuse, NY, talk to the head oncologist and asked him, did I hurt myself by vaping? The answer was No, it was the 40 plus years of smoking. Next questions was can I keep vaping, even during my treatments, he told me if it would keep me from smoking then yes. But he caution me, "Moderation" and that there was still a lot left unknown. For my treatments I went to a place he recommended that was closer, there I asked the same questions to that oncologists and got the same answers.
I was lucky, it was caught early and I'm, so far, cancer free. Yeah, I'm sure I'm more paranoid about my vaping then most, but playing it safe, how can that be a bad thing?
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
And my first post linked the carcinogen study directly:
A Device-Independent Evaluation of Carbonyl Emissions from Heated Electronic Cigarette Solvents
My take is TC will prevent dry hits and so if doing that, or vaping with v/w and ensuring you don't get dry hits you are doing everything you can to minimise any possible risk. The only vaping related evidence at the moment is that dry hits are not good, if you get to the point where you're burning wicks your temp is too high for that coil - doesn't matter how that temp is produced. TC is probably a more foolproof way to ensure this but as I can't remember my last dry hit (at least 3 years ago) I'm happy to stick with non TC. I will revise this when/if vaping studies are done with temp control to show that emissions are produced above a certain temp when vaping and this is unable to be detected by a change in taste (the device independent study does not show this, nor does it indicate a safe temperature for temp control devices)
There was objective evidence presented looking at the production of aldehydes in a Subtank, with supposedly unpublished findings with 2 or 3 other tanks, all showing very low levels up to 25W. That's a real worlds study. Granted, only one, and while apparently applying to other tanks, it is still unknown with EVERY possible tank and coil and wicking configuration, so I would keep an eye open for others to reproduce that data to assure validity. If it's conformed I think tootlers will be just fine. Just don't chain tootle. Maybe. Maybe not.
I will tell you that as a higher power type vaper, I'm not changing anything based on what was presented, only keeping my ears and opinion open to further information. If I were to change anything, it's something I've already done. All my bigger build that need lots of power to work are all run in TC now. No more ramp up issues and no more hot last second. It's that last hot second I think in my case I personally prefer to avoid. But I did that months ago before this stuff came out. Not as in "Oh, I knew it!" because that wasn't my thought, but more in "Good, I don't have to change anything for now".
How about some ammo for you kanthal/nichrome users to use against noob tc vapers who think they are bang on whatever temp their display shows....oh yeah, I'm going to feed that stray cat!!!
First, I'm not an evolv rep and do not believe I've seen any here. I know most of the peeps on ecf who push evolve products but like myself I believe they just want folks to have the best control over their vape and deepen their understanding of temp control....so here we go.
Screw on a factory tc coil, or build your own for that matter, select your tc wire mode, set your cold/base res at room temp, set your mod for 450°f and you're good to go right? Yeah, not so much.
The tcr of the wire has variance between wire manufacturers and lot numbers. The wire coming out of China seems to have the highest % of variance in tcr. Especially all the 316L that it so commonly used today.
Tcr plays a huge role in a tc mod's ability to calculate coil temp and variances can easily put you out of calibration by 50°f. So maybe you're vaping at 450°f and maybe you're not!
If you are going to go tc you need a mod that has manual tcr adjustments, as many do today, so that you can calibrate the mod to that particular spool of wire.
Testing the tcr value for a particular spool of tc wire is a fairly simple endeavor and assures that the displayed temp is as close to the actual coil temp as possible. Some call this a "420°f dry cotton browning test" and it can only be performed on rbas and mods with adjustable tcr.
I am not an advocate of trusting factory coils for tc vaping because you cannot legitimately test the tcr value of the wire being used.
Is the dry cotton browning test perfect? No, because it requires human interpretation by visually observing the point at which the dry cotton begins to turn brown from coil heat.
Is this the most accurate way to tc vape? I believe it is.
Is tc vaping always safer than non-tc? I believe it has the potential to be the safest but not with factory tc coils and/or mods without manual tcr adjustments.
My apologies to all you hard core tc-only vapers out there but to be fair both sides of the tc story need to be told.
First, I'm not an evolv rep and do not believe I've seen any here. I know most of the peeps on ecf who push evolve products but like myself I believe they just want folks to have the best control over their vape and deepen their understanding of temp control....so here we go.
Screw on a factory tc coil, or build your own for that matter, select your tc wire mode, set your cold/base res at room temp, set your mod for 450°f and you're good to go right? Yeah, not so much.
The tcr of the wire has variance between wire manufacturers and lot numbers. The wire coming out of China seems to have the highest % of variance in tcr. Especially all the 316L that it so commonly used today.
Tcr plays a huge role in a tc mod's ability to calculate coil temp and variances can easily put you out of calibration by 50°f. So maybe you're vaping at 450°f and maybe you're not!
If you are going to go tc you need a mod that has manual tcr adjustments, as many do today, so that you can calibrate the mod to that particular spool of wire.
Testing the tcr value for a particular spool of tc wire is a fairly simple endeavor and assures that the displayed temp is as close to the actual coil temp as possible. Some call this a "420°f dry cotton browning test" and it can only be performed on rbas and mods with adjustable tcr.
I am not an advocate of trusting factory coils for tc vaping because you cannot legitimately test the tcr value of the wire being used.
Is the dry cotton browning test perfect? No, because it requires human interpretation by visually observing the point at which the dry cotton begins to turn brown from coil heat.
Is this the most accurate way to tc vape? I believe it is.
Is tc vaping always safer than non-tc? I believe it has the potential to be the safest but not with factory tc coils and/or mods without manual tcr adjustments.
My apologies to all you hard core tc-only vapers out there but to be fair both sides of the tc story need to be told.
Well...I am a red headed German/Irish Capricorn and 'probably' drives me nuts.
I want to see !
So, a TC Device has my interest now.
Besides...I love gadgets !
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