New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[SlickWilly]

.

I wonder what effect adding H2O to the VG has, I had been adding water as a Temp control of sorts in an effort to reduce Acrolein. If you can reduce the boiling point it should keep the temperatures as a whole lower, the vapour is removed from the heat source at the boiling point and if it's lower will also draw heat away from the coil faster if juice is present and being vapourized.

Glycerine - Boiling and Freezing Points

Also those levels reported are they safe? (I'll be looking this up and reading this thread later) or is this more scare tactics?

Thanks for the info

Watch the videos in the first two posts, that was talked about.

 

[Robino1]

What sized wire?
(when you said you were a tootle puffer, you weren't kidding . . . )

Hard core tootle puffer!!

The one that has a label says 30ga A1 round. I the other spool is 32ga. I'm not sure of what I am doing so I sometimes make a coil with one and then the next time it is with the other. I guesstimate about how many wraps by looking at the size of the coil I take off to the one I am making. I test it with the provari and if too low, make another one. I can range between 2 and 2.6. In that range it is acceptable to me.

Yep, I hate making coils so I baby the heck out of them so I don't have to make them that often.

Had to do some digging in my old paperwork to get the gauge of the 30ga spool. Wow! That was a looooong time ago!

 

[tj99959]

Normal build is 2.4 (or thereabouts) coil with kanthal. 3.4-3.6 volts. ProVari doesn't do watts. Someone else will have to figure out what the translation from volts to watts

That's pretty easy Robin.
Ohm's Law calculator

2.4 ohms @ 3.5 volts = 5.1 watts

add:
Just understand that a DRY 2.4 ohm coil @ 3.5v can turn white hot, and that is what TC prevents.

 

[mikepetro]

Hard core tootle puffer!!

The one that has a label says 30ga A1 round. I the other spool is 32ga. I'm not sure of what I am doing so I sometimes make a coil with one and then the next time it is with the other. I guesstimate about how many wraps by looking at the size of the coil I take off to the one I am making. I test it with the provari and if too low, make another one. I can range between 2 and 2.6. In that range it is acceptable to me.

Yep, I hate making coils so I baby the heck out of them so I don't have to make them that often.

That is about as tootle as it gets.

My gut tells me that you are fine as long as you have good wicking and keep the coil saturated.

 

[tj99959]

Ya just made me go look to see what my Provari is set at.

3.3v with a 1.8 ohm coil
1.8 ohms @ 3.3 volts = 6 watts

 

[Flavored]

Hard core tootle puffer!!

The one that has a label says 30ga A1 round. I the other spool is 32ga. I'm not sure of what I am doing so I sometimes make a coil with one and then the next time it is with the other. I guesstimate about how many wraps by looking at the size of the coil I take off to the one I am making. I test it with the provari and if too low, make another one. I can range between 2 and 2.6. In that range it is acceptable to me.

Yep, I hate making coils so I baby the heck out of them so I don't have to make them that often.

Ok, I do have 30 and 32 gauge NI wire, though they tend to smash up when you breathe on them. Do you wrap around something common? And about how many wraps are we talking? 6, 8, 10?

 

[Robino1]

Ok, I do have 30 and 32 gauge NI wire, though they tend to smash up when you breathe on them. Do you wrap around something common? And about how many wraps are we talking? 6, 8, 10?

Easiest way to wrap....that coil wrapping gizmo...Coil Master. Ummmm how many? About 10? ROFL

Don't worry about it. I really do think I am safe'ish

 

[Eskie]

Ok, I do have 30 and 32 gauge NI wire, though they tend to smash up when you breathe on them. Do you wrap around something common? And about how many wraps are we talking? 6, 8, 10?

If you're talking Ni wire as in TC wire, it should not be used in power/wattage mode. Only TC for Ni and Ti.

 

[Lessifer]

I vape with a ProVari and Kayfun combo. I don't have TC.

Bottom line: do I need to worry?

Serious question.

I'm sure there are more like me out there wondering...

I know they are only your opinions. I'm just looking for a general consensus either way.

I'm fairly certain, with this particular subject, there are many following this thread and wondering the same question.

Who exactly did this study?

I hope you trust that I'm not one to dismiss any scientific information.

There's a lot being discussed and mingled in this thread. There were actually three "studies."

1. Wang - who heated pg, vg, and e-liquid in a steel tube reactor(not a simulation of vaping) and found the temperatures at which the various liquids release the various compounds and how much. It starts to get bad at roughly 450F.
2. Evolv - collected user data on coil temperatures of their users, they found that users are routinely going above 450F, even low wattage users. They then theorized that because of what Wang found and their data, many vapers re exposing themselves to these compounds. What they did NOT do is confirm that COIL temperatures above 450F result in the formation of these compounds.
3. Kurt - tested various atomizers, reported the results of a subtank at 0.5ohm and up to 35w(I think), and they did not detect any of the compounds outside of dry puff scenarios. He also found that mixing VG, which has a high boiling point, with other liquids that have lower boiling points, does bring down the boiling point of the mixture considerably.

So, like most things in vaping, there's no actual evidence that you need to be worried, but there's no evidence that you're completely safe either. If you want to be extra special cautious, you might want to look into TC.

 

[DPLongo22]

So, like most things in vaping, there's no actual evidence that you need to be worried, but there's no evidence that you're completely safe either.

Hear, hear, Mr. L.

Pardon the interruption, all, but I'm thinking that I may need to get rid of my much-valued-and-used generator now.
Carbon Monoxide Kills More Americans Than Mass Shootings, Terrorism Combined | American Council on Science and Health

I welcome any and all opinions, and am prepared to roll it out to the curb for pickup later today. Screw electricity. I mean, if it's not 100% safe...

"So eat healthy and exercise, buckle your seat belt, stop texting while driving, and put down that cigarette."

That works for me.

I'm hoping you wise folks will completely ignore this entire post, as it is purely tongue-in-cheek (for the most part, anyway).

 

[motordude]

How dare you guys use reason in a world such as ours!

 

[NU_FTW]

Hear, hear, Mr. L.

Pardon the interruption, all, but I'm thinking that I may need to get rid of my much-valued-and-used generator now.
Carbon Monoxide Kills More Americans Than Mass Shootings, Terrorism Combined | American Council on Science and Health

I welcome any and all opinions, and am prepared to roll it out to the curb for pickup later today. Screw electricity. I mean, if it's not 100% safe...

"So eat healthy and exercise, buckle your seat belt, stop texting while driving, and put down that cigarette."

That works for me.

I'm hoping you wise folks will completely ignore this entire post, as it is purely tongue-in-cheek (for the most part, anyway).

should probably get rid of your automobile as well as any alcohol you have

 

[Robino1]

I hope you trust that I'm not one to dismiss any scientific information.

There's a lot being discussed and mingled in this thread. There were actually three "studies."

1. Wang - who heated pg, vg, and e-liquid in a steel tube reactor(not a simulation of vaping) and found the temperatures at which the various liquids release the various compounds and how much. It starts to get bad at roughly 450F.
2. Evolv - collected user data on coil temperatures of their users, they found that users are routinely going above 450F, even low wattage users. They then theorized that because of what Wang found and their data, many vapers re exposing themselves to these compounds. What they did NOT do is confirm that COIL temperatures above 450F result in the formation of these compounds.
3. Kurt - tested various atomizers, reported the results of a subtank at 0.5ohm and up to 35w(I think), and they did not detect any of the compounds outside of dry puff scenarios. He also found that mixing VG, which has a high boiling point, with other liquids that have lower boiling points, does bring down the boiling point of the mixture considerably.

So, like most things in vaping, there's no actual evidence that you need to be worried, but there's no evidence that you're completely safe either. If you want to be extra special cautious, you might want to look into TC.

One of the first links I clicked on was the link to Kurt's presentation. Him I trust completely. He truly does have our interests at heart. Others...I don't trust so much. I will read and take it into consideration and let all the techies duke it out and watch (while inserting a post here and there) the thread unfold.

I do trust you. I watch and read most everyone that is on this thread. Some I agree with and some I don't. Depends on what is being discussed at that moment. I value everyone's opinion. How else do we learn?

Not really worried and being over cautious. I know what a dry hit is, I know how to avoid them. Once you have just one, you pretty much watch for it so you can avoid them.

I also know that I am in much better condition than I was 4 years ago. I don't think I will be going the TC route. I will continue on my merry little tootle puffing way

 

[mikepetro]

 

[Flavored]

If you're talking Ni wire as in TC wire, it should not be used in power/wattage mode. Only TC for Ni and Ti.

Yes, I know. I set the Watts just above her calculated value and will watch T.

 

[tj99959]

Only ..... I know without a doubt that I am 4 years older than I was 4 years ago.

Most don't think I'm as old as I am until they HEAR me stand up.

 

[WillyZee]

Hear, hear, Mr. L.

Pardon the interruption, all, but I'm thinking that I may need to get rid of my much-valued-and-used generator now.
Carbon Monoxide Kills More Americans Than Mass Shootings, Terrorism Combined | American Council on Science and Health

I welcome any and all opinions, and am prepared to roll it out to the curb for pickup later today. Screw electricity. I mean, if it's not 100% safe...

"So eat healthy and exercise, buckle your seat belt, stop texting while driving, and put down that cigarette."

That works for me.

I'm hoping you wise folks will completely ignore this entire post, as it is purely tongue-in-cheek (for the most part, anyway).

I'll take the Generator ... thanks for the contest DP

 

[zoiDman]

This has been an interesting thread, but I think that you can vape in safe parameters even in wattage mode. I guess what I'm getting from that experiment that you and I did was , good wicking provides juice to the coil keeping the temp low enough to be safe even in wattage mode..
When I went up 5 more watts (35w)with back to back hits it finally started to kick in. Now I don't vape like that (crazy chain vaping) and I don't think most people do but I was trying to prove a point through extreme conditions.
Its when your wick can't keep up due to higher watts the coil and lack of juice (causing the little but remaining juice) to get too hot creating those dangerous conditions. Seems like a saturated wick won't get as hot.
That's kinda what I'm getting out of it. Totally could be wrong just a theory....
Yes I do get why TC can help for many vapers and can be a safer route... I just think that those harmful conditions are not in every device or build that is in wattage mode.

Totally Agree. TC is Not the only way that Coil Wire Temperatures are/can be Limited.

Good Wicking and Airflow couple with a range of wattages can have the Same Effect as TC Temp limit as you and I saw.

---

BTW - Here is an e-Mail I'm sending to a Non-ECF Friend of mine who is Very Freaked all this. It's a Long Read. So I put it in a Quote so people can just Skip over it if they want.

Hi xxxxxxx.

Good to hear from you Again.

JMO

What I think caused the Anthill to be Kicked Over in all this was that this "New Study" called into Question a long held belief with some Vaper's.

And that is/was that Unless you are getting a Dry Hit, you are Not Producing anything that may be Harmful.

This belief Fit in well with Debunking many of the Egregious "Studies" that have been published over the years. And gave Vaper's a Tangible Benchmark they could assign Risk to. ie: No Dry Hits = Little or No Risk.

Now something comes along and calls this into Question. Can a Harmful Chemical Compound(s) be produced in Ranges that people would Not Consider to be a Dry Hit? And if so, does that Mean that Everyone who is Not using a TC Mod is at Risk? And what about those who use a TC Mod but set their Temp Limits above what a Graph says is when Harmful Compounds are produced?

So what's the One-Size-Fits-All Blanket Answer to all these Question. There Isn't Any.

Are there Some people who are Using VW and are producing some amount of Harmful Compounds in their vapor? I couldn't Imagine why not. Are the Majority of VW User doing this? I doubt it.

Same with TC Users. Is just using TC set at Any Temperature eliminating the ability of these Compounds from being Formed? I doubt that also.

There Really is Nothing New about All this. Because it has been Known for a Long Time that VG and PG and Flavorings/Sweeteners break down into things that could be considered Harmful at or above a given Temperature(s). I think the Only thing that is "New" (for many people) is that these Given Temperature(s) may be under what produces a Dry Hit.

So Should all VW users Freak Out and toss their Mods out? And should Mech users retire Mechs? I don't think so.

Should we Ignore things like this because some can Paint the Picture that this is just Wrangling's of a Patent Holder to Pump Up their Bottom Line. No... I don't think we should do that Either.

I think we All should just keep an Open Mind and keep Looking at e-Cigarette use in Totality. And Not forget that e-Cigarettes have Always been Harm Reduction over Smoking. And for the Overwhelming Majority of e-Cigarettes that Vaper's use, they are just that.

Significant Harm Reduction over Smoking.

 

[mikepetro]

Interesting reading:
Appears to be objective.

Do e-liquids undergo thermal decomposition (pyrolysis) when vaped?
E-Cig aerosols are typically generated at temperatures of 100–250°C, which is predicted to cause pyrolysis of the e-liquid vehicle (162) and may also induce breakdown of other e-liquid constituents. Recently, formaldehyde has been detected in E-Cig emissions (77). However, these data have been disputed (55). Part of the problem lies in deciding which temperature the e-liquid is heated to during the experiment vs. what occurs during actual vaping. For example, Jensen et al. found significant amounts of formaldehyde (∼380 μg/10 puffs) in the emission from a tank-style E-Cig device when the battery voltage was set at 5.0 V, with no formaldehyde being detected when a lower voltage (3.3 V) was used (77). Because the power consumption/electrical resistance of the coil was not quoted by Jensen et al., it will be hard to see how this observation transfers to other E-Cig devices. That is, the power generated by the heating coil cannot be determined purely by the quoted voltage since it also depends on the current, and the temperature reached by the e-liquid is dependent on the power output of the heating element. Thus, for reproducibility, it may be useful for researchers to quote the power output of their E-Cig device in addition to the puff profile used. Farsalinos et al. have reported that E-Cig users do not use this higher voltage setting, and they also proposed that E-Cigs only produce formaldehyde in “dry puff” conditions (55), where a dry puff refers to the scenario where there is little liquid on the atomizer coil and temperatures get higher than would be seen with sufficient liquid, leading to the potential for increased pyrolysis. However, acrolein and other carbonyls have also been found by other investigators both in neat e-liquids and in E-Cig aerosols that were generated by unmodified E-Cig devices (133), suggesting that the occurrence/production of these compounds may be more common than originally suspected. Interestingly, neat glycerin does not pyrolyze at 900°C. However, when diluted, significant amounts of acrolein were produced following pyrolysis of glycerol (28). Similarly, these aldehydes are known to be released from vegetable oil (of which glycerol is a major component) when it is heated during cooking, even to 180°C, which is close to temperatures reported for E-Cigs (130–350°C) (146). For example, the acrid smell that occurs when oil is burned on a stove is from acrolein (13, 29). Similarly, the chemical decomposition of sugars also causes the release of aldehydes, including acrolein (144).

It has been proposed that E-Cig users tend to avoid the bitter taste that is associated with release of aldehydes during overheating/dry puffing and that, in actual E-Cig users, aldehyde exposure never actually happens (55). However, during the aforementioned practice of dripping, where the e-liquids are placed directly on the coil, it is possible that significant pyrolysis occurs. Certainly, cigarettes can produce a harsh taste that is concomitant with the production of significant amounts of acrolein, formaldehyde, and other aldehydes, along with many other toxicants (144). However, this relatively unpleasant taste is soon overcome in new smokers due to the power of the nicotine drive (136) and due to cross-desensitization of transient receptor potential ankyrin subtype 1 (TRPA1) channels in sensory neurons (19). Therefore, it is also possible that E-Cig users will “learn” to overcome any unpleasant taste due to increased aldehyde production if the nicotine drive is great enough. It is also worth pointing out at this point that many flavors are themselves aldehydes, including anisaldehyde (sweet), cinnamaldehyde (cinnamon), and isovaleraldehyde (nutty). The effects of these flavors on pulmonary surfaces are not known. However, their potential inclusion in e-liquids may increase overall aldehyde exposure to the lung. Indeed, cinnamaldehyde is present in some e-liquids (14) and activates TRPA1 (108), suggesting that they may exert effects on the lung. Similarly, activation of this ion channel in sensory neurons in the airways of rodents by unsaturated aldehydes has previously been shown to trigger neurogenic inflammation (7) and to inhibit the CFTR ion channel (4), suggesting that a higher aldehyde burden may indeed be toxic to the lung. However, the degree of adverse effects will likely depend on dose ranging and whether aldehydes are actually generated in sufficient quantities during real vaping conditions to trigger these responses.

In addition to aldehydes, Lerner et al. also found that E-Cig aerosols generated from two separate devices produced oxidants and reactive oxygen species (OX/ROS) (94). Because the amount of OX/ROS changes with time as smoke matures, these data suggest that freshly produced E-Cig aerosols may be more potent than “aged” E-Cig aerosols, which has important implications for their study. Indeed, with regular cigarette smoke, different biological effects are seen with freshly produced vs. aged smoke, with aged smoke often being less biologically potent, which has previously been attributed to the decline in OX/ROS over time (74). Furthermore, because OX/ROS are highly reactive, they may also react with other components in the E-Cig aerosol, further changing its chemical composition. Indeed, Sussan et al. demonstrated that E-Cigs contain 1011 free radicals/puff, which is about 100 times less than is seen in regular cigarettes (142), but still likely to exert significant biological effects (45).

http://ajplung.physiology.org/content/309/12/L1398

 

[Lessifer]

Hear, hear, Mr. L.

Pardon the interruption, all, but I'm thinking that I may need to get rid of my much-valued-and-used generator now.
Carbon Monoxide Kills More Americans Than Mass Shootings, Terrorism Combined | American Council on Science and Health

I welcome any and all opinions, and am prepared to roll it out to the curb for pickup later today. Screw electricity. I mean, if it's not 100% safe...

"So eat healthy and exercise, buckle your seat belt, stop texting while driving, and put down that cigarette."

That works for me.

I'm hoping you wise folks will completely ignore this entire post, as it is purely tongue-in-cheek (for the most part, anyway).

Also completely off topic, I can't remember if this is a local law, or more broad, but carbon monoxide detectors are required in any rental property or house that is sold. At least they are where I live.