New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

That's good and I think that's what Mike was trying to do with this thread.

Yep, just want people to think.

I firmly believe that "temperature matters" whether you are conscious of it or not.

Am I saying to quit what you are doing and change your vape, NO, I am not saying that. Its just another aspect to consider.

Incidentally, if we do "assume", that high coil temps generate nasties, and that the EcigStats data are believable, then the vast majority of vapers are already in the theoretical safer zone.

 

[NU_FTW]

Exactly my thoughts.

here is "my " example, and why I question it all.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170309/e16317bb3527fa918a115242bb4926b1.jpg

Now my coil is twice that resistance, and my power level is ~ 1/3 that.
So is my vape safer or more dangerous??

BTW, your battery is about dead

how could you possibly know if my battery is about dead?

 

[zoiDman]

...

This is why it's always important, if you can, to read the methods and results and try to determine if they actually lead to the conclusions given. Especially important in an area where the researchers may only have a cursory knowledge of the real world applications they are trying to emulate.

Yeah... The 1st thing I like to do is read who Funded the Study and any Financial Conflicts with the Author's or Co-Contributor's. Then I read the Protocols and Methodology used to generate the Study Data.

If the Protocols or Methodology are not Clearly Defined, I tend to stop Reading.

Because if you Don't know how something is Evaluated, how can one make Guesstimations as to how well the Evaluations actually are?

Reading a Study that says a CE4 emits Harmful Compounds doesn't help me much. Because I Don't use CE4's or similar Clearos. But if the Reason a CE4 is emitting a Harmful Compound is because the e-Liquid in contact with the coil is Exceeding 420F, now that is becoming Meaningful.

The issue Now becomes can I look at what was happing inside a CE4 that caused the e-Liquid to exceed 420F? And can this Information be Applied to the Atomizers I use? And the Way I Vape?

It may. Or it May Not.

But it is a Start. Because I at least have a Quantified Reference Temperature. Some before I might not have had. And the Only frame of Reference was taking a Dry Hit.

Which I Didn't need a Study to Tell Me that Dry Hit Vapor probably contains things I want to Avoid Inhaling.

 

[mikepetro]

They must have money to burn at those studies.
Setting up ridiculous contraptions to do everything except simulate real vaping activity.

Here's a typical build on a typical mod and here's a typical build on a tootlepuffer rig.
Machine uses typical draw at various settings to collect lifelike vape clouds.
Analyze chemicals found in collected clouds.
Compare findings from different power levels to give usable safety data.

suck>analyze>compare
Now was that so freaking hard?

Lol, first define "typical"!
I dont think there is any such thing in this crowd, and thats why it works, we can customize our vape to suit us.

 

[englishmick]

Actually many of us that don't use TC mods still gained a lot from this thread.

Am I going to change the way I vape? .. NO.
Am I going to be a little more careful with what I do? .. Probably.
What I do know is that I will not go back to smoking.

I've learned something about TC. Haven't tried it but since I have Picos I reckon I'll give it a shot, sometime when I'm not so busy.

I have a TC question. What gets measured when there is more than one coil? An average presumably. Coils aren't always going to be perfectly balanced. That's a guess, I've never built multiple coils.

 

[tj99959]

how could you possibly know if my battery is about dead?

Sorry about that ... meant their battery is about dead.

 

[Mowgli]

Lol, first define "typical"!
I dont think there is any such thing in this crowd, and thats why it works, we can customize our vape to suit us.

I simplified it.
10 or more different mods* at usable levels vaping different (typical ) PG/VG ratios.
Add as many variables as necessary to simulate a wide range of realistic scenarios.


*when I said mods I meant mod/topper combos

 

[mikepetro]

I've learned something about TC. Haven't tried it but since I have Picos I reckon I'll give it a shot, sometime when I'm not so busy.

I have a TC question. What gets measured when there is more than one coil? An average presumably. Coils aren't always going to be perfectly balanced. That's a guess, I've never built multiple coils.

The easiest way is plug it into a calculator.

Parallel Resistor Calculator R1 + R2 = equivalent resistor R resistance circuit equiv total resistor finder made easy piggyback = parallel - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

 

[Eskie]

I've learned something about TC. Haven't tried it but since I have Picos I reckon I'll give it a shot, sometime when I'm not so busy.

I have a TC question. What gets measured when there is more than one coil? An average presumably. Coils aren't always going to be perfectly balanced. That's a guess, I've never built multiple coils.

The board reads the resistance of your build and the change with the application of current. It doesn't "know" how many coils are there, just the sum of the resistance between positive and negative posts.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Incidentally, if we do "assume", that high coil temps generate nasties, and that the EcigStats data are believable, then the vast majority of vapers are already in the theoretical safer zone.

Refresh my Memory.

What does the Vertical Axis represent?

 

[cigatron]

how could you possibly know if my battery is about dead?

By how energetic you are

 

[mikepetro]

Refresh my Memory.

What does the Vertical Axis represent?

% of total puffs for the given wattage band.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

I've learned something about TC. Haven't tried it but since I have Picos I reckon I'll give it a shot, sometime when I'm not so busy.

I have a TC question. What gets measured when there is more than one coil? An average presumably. Coils aren't always going to be perfectly balanced. That's a guess, I've never built multiple coils.

With multiple coils, you should always aim for "as close as possible"... basically you're putting the coils in parallel, so the mods will be reading the resistance between the positive and negative.

It's when you apply power that's going to be important that the coils are the same, as that they receive the same power... so if you have a coil that's different to the other, two things happens.
1) the weaker coil will heat up much faster, which isn't good
2) the resistance of that coil will change faster too and throw things out of wack, so the TC won't be accurate at all.

That's why you need to test your coils properly. If you use NI or TI, you have to ensure that you test each coil to have the same resistance (ohm) reading, while with SS, same, but at least you can see it visually by doing a dry burn and see if they start glowing at the same time.

 

[soulseek]

I've learned something about TC. Haven't tried it but since I have Picos I reckon I'll give it a shot, sometime when I'm not so busy.

I have a TC question. What gets measured when there is more than one coil? An average presumably. Coils aren't always going to be perfectly balanced. That's a guess, I've never built multiple coils.

TC works by measuring the sum of the resistance. This is why it is crucial you have an atomiser with a steady connection (Kayfun with spring didn't work well because of this) and a good 510 connection. Furthermore it's important that you don't have longer legs on your coil that aren't in contact with the wick and hence liquid.
When it comes to parallel coils, again it works by looking at the total resistance, which is why it is very important for you to have coils with the same turns (i.e. same length).

 

[Lessifer]

They must have money to burn at those studies.
Setting up ridiculous contraptions to do everything except simulate real vaping activity.

Here's a typical build on a typical mod and here's a typical build on a tootlepuffer rig.
Machine uses typical draw at various settings to collect lifelike vape clouds.
Analyze chemicals found in collected clouds.
Compare findings from different power levels to give usable safety data.

suck>analyze>compare
Now was that so freaking hard?

Yeah... The 1st thing I like to do is read who Funded the Study and any Financial Conflicts with the Author's or Co-Contributor's. Then I read the Protocols and Methodology used to generate the Study Data.

If the Protocols or Methodology are not Clearly Defined, I tend to stop Reading.

Because if you Don't know how something is Evaluated, how can one make Guesstimations as to how well the Evaluations actually are?

Reading a Study that says a CE4 emits Harmful Compounds doesn't help me much. Because I Don't use CE4's or similar Clearos. But if the Reason a CE4 is emitting a Harmful Compound is because the e-Liquid in contact with the coil is Exceeding 420F, now that is becoming Meaningful.

The issue Now becomes can I look at what was happing inside a CE4 that caused the e-Liquid to exceed 420F? And can this Information be Applied to the Atomizers I use? And the Way I Vape?

It may. Or it May Not.

But it is a Start. Because I at least have a Quantified Reference Temperature. Some before I might not have had. And the Only frame of Reference was taking a Dry Hit.

Which I Didn't need a Study to Tell Me that Dry Hit Vapor probably contains things I want to Avoid Inhaling.

The Wang study was actually trying to get some general, non device specific results. To avoid the whole, this is how it is in a CE4 but how is it in a subtank problem. The problem is, they made it so "device independent" that it possibly/probably no longer emulates the process that occurs in ANY atomizer.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

And just to throw this out there: Just by the very nature of what we are doing, vaping, we have been encouraged to ask questions of and to not blindly follow studies. This goes both ways, the good and the bad.

Questioning is the only way to dig down to, hopefully, get the truth.

I just hope that this study on TC does not take away choices.

This ^^^^^^^ is exactly what I think the FDA is pushing for. Given the 'example' used (CE4) was probably one of the worst of those types of clearomizers, this, in their minds, only strengthens their position that the industry needs their oversight. So sad and such a shame that they will not recognize the vast improvements made in the ecig industry after their self-imposed cut off date.

I have no doubt that once again the vapers will continue to police themselves(as we always have) and find the answers we all are seeking. This may be just the kick in the pants that was needed to get us to where the temps can be locked down as to what is and what isn't the safest practice. Look how far the industry has come in such a short amount of time. Given the collaboration of vapers from all over the world can there really be any doubt?

The FDA is trying to keep us off balance by continued attacks on our vaping lifestyles, and while this is another 'sucker punch' in the gut, it also reveals more insight into how they plan to implement their strategies in shutting us down.

 

[tj99959]

By how energetic you are

ROFL

Actually, the battery comment was simply a way of saying "see, I really have been paying attention", because the battery indicator in that picture shows that the battery could use a charge.

 

[Zakillah]

I completely agree. I think this is what Kurt meant by the importance of standardising puff protocols etc. - so that we get as close as possible to consistently replicating vaping across studies and use real time vapers in studies if possible. The big problem is that things move so fast that research tends to be behind the times.

Thats a big problem, and IMO overall impossible to solve.
The current "standard" puff protocol is a 3 second, 55ml puff every 30 seconds. This works ok for cigalikes and small tanks, which were popular ~3 years ago (think Evods or early ProTanks), but will not be able to simulate restricted or full lung hits at higher power. You´d need alot more volume for that, obviously.
Those old tanks had no airflow control and the usable Wattage range was very narrow, so a single puff profile, while not "perfect" for every device, will work decently.
Now think about about the many possibilities you have with even a simple random SubTank/Mod combo today.
Wattage range far wider. Close airflow halfway/a third or go fully open. How long and hard should the draw be?
Stuff like this cannot be standardised, and I am not even talking about different atties now. I think everybody agrees that using the same protocol on a Kanger SubTank and a Smok TFVsomething is not going to give "real life" results.

 

[zoiDman]

% of total puffs for the given wattage band.

View attachment 640073

OK. So it is a Decimal Produc of 100.

Gotcha.

 

[NU_FTW]

By how energetic you are

funny