New York Post and a deadly vape pen

[Morgan_Drury]

If you really think a decimal point error is "not that big a deal, barely worthy of comment", then try this experiment. Get a pot and put in 1.25 cups of water. Make a mental note of how full/empty it looks. Then dump it out and try to put in 12.5 cups of water. You will see just how big of a difference it can be. Now imagine making this mistake with something that could kill you.

Let take that further.

Scenario A:

Life has been busy. You and your best friend haven't talked for 2 months. You get a message. Your best friend has lost 10 lbs.

Situation B:

Life has been busy. You and your best friend haven't talked for 2 months. You get a message. Your best friend has lost 100 lbs.

How does this affect your perception of reality and what you do?

Same principle. Different situation.

You toss an atomizer with a build already in it on a mech mod powered by 2 15A 18650's in series. You think it's a .5 ohm build and vape it for 3 seconds. Turns out it's a .5 ohm build.

How awesome was that vape?

You toss an atomizer with a build already in it on a mech mod powered by 2 15A 18650's in series. You think it's a .5 ohm build and vape it for 3 seconds. Turns out it's a .1 ohm build.

How awesome was that vape?

 

[ScottP]

You think it's a .5 ohm build and vape it for 3 seconds. Turns out it's a .1 ohm build.

That's not a decimal error though. I get what you were trying to do though.

 

[Morgan_Drury]

That's not a decimal error though. I get what you were trying to do though.

Exactly. When it comes to many things in life, being misinformed can make or break your odds of survival.

 

[FΛDED]

It's always the battery and it's misuse that could be dangerous, not the vape pen or mod. Latest story I heard was this one..



7 years vaping for me. Not a single vent or battery failure, even chain vaping my tubes too. Gotta always be sure to check your connections and battery wraps. Don't be careless. Maintain your devices regularly. Vape safely.

 

[ScottP]

It's always the battery and it's misuse that could be dangerous, not the vape pen or mod. Latest story I heard was this one..



7 years vaping for me. Not a single vent or battery failure, even chain vaping my tubes too. Gotta always be sure to check your connections and battery wraps. Don't be careless. Maintain your devices regularly. Vape safely.

I don't disagree. The sad truth though is that most people don't know they should do these things, no one tells them, they just decide to go into a shop one day and pick something up and they get no information. Often times they are sold crappy battery rewraps by the same store that sold them the mod. This is one reason I think pod systems are good for the masses. I don't think I have heard of a pod system blowing up, at least not yet. Once they use that for a while and start looking for something better, maybe they will find ECF before they buy so they can get informed.

 

[TheTinMan]

vape it for 3 seconds

I would be pretty impressed if anyone could manage 3 seconds at 705 watts.

Of course I am joking.

 

[Baditude]

It's always the battery and it's misuse that could be dangerous, not the vape pen or mod.

Yes and no. It's usually a battery short (misuse or user error) which causes a battery to vent. Not that big a deal if your mech has adequate venting, and certainly not desirable. It's a HUGE deal if your mech does not have adequate venting; at that point the mech becomes a pipe bomb.

 

[stols001]

Um, I was kidding. I should have made that clear. I know the decimal point matters. Etc.

Anna

 

[Skrû_ball]

I did not read the particular article reposted here, because I live close to where this happened, so I have heard numerous(horribly vague) reports about this. Supposedly the guy was an electrical technician, or engineer, or that is what his grandmother said, his grandmother he lived with who all the sudden became an authority on “vape pens” and the dangers of them, or that is how some news outlets made her sound. This is from what I can glean from local media, either the guy was vaping while charging his device through a d/c cigarette lighter output, maybe he started the car and well that is just not smart power surges do occur, for instance Apple does not even make an “apple brand” car charger because there is such a high risk to burn out your iPhone. That or he was vaping a mech till it became too hot, and also for whatever reason people seem to think if the positive side of the battery is touching the atomizer, the mech hits harder, even though the vent holes are often facing down towards the button, so the positive side(where the battery will obviously vent) should go towards the vent holes, or that is what I always assumed. Seriously this guy had zero reasons to not learn the safety of vaping, it is no “elite vaping” secret the info is crazy available, but of course that’s not what you hear about, it’s OBVIOUSLY the “dangerous” inanimate objects fault it blew up

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Won’t dispute the importance of venting and how a cell should be positioned within a device to take advantage of said venting. But…the lack of venting or the orientation of the cell within a tube mech does not cause a battery to explode. Something else was the cause, and what ever that cause was would proper venting, assuming proper venting was used, have prevented the explosion?

With the below video we can whiteness how quickly and without an ounce of warning, a device can blow. Although in somewhat low resolution we can see the venting gas just prior to the device blowing up. We also see hot shrapnel flying in all directions. With the right sequence of events this could have been just as fatal as the poor individual in Texas despite the device allowed venting.

 

[Izan]

Won’t dispute the importance of venting and how a cell should be positioned within a device to take advantage of said venting. But…the lack of venting or the orientation of the cell within a tube mech does not cause a battery to explode. Something else was the cause, and what ever that cause was would proper venting, assuming proper venting was used, have prevented the explosion?

With the below video we can whiteness how quickly and without an ounce of warning, a device can blow. Although in somewhat low resolution we can see the venting gas just prior to the device blowing up. We also see hot shrapnel flying in all directions. With the right sequence of events this could have been just as fatal as the poor individual in Texas despite the device allowed venting.

Respectfully, using a mech, if you push the button and is does NOT fire, take it apart and find the problem.
DO NOT push the button again. That non-fire event WAS the warning.

Cheers
I

 

[Baditude]

Not sure what happened in your posted video, @Punk In Drublic. The event certainly seemed to happen really fast. He did appear to be fiddling with his setup prior to the explosion, so maybe it wasn't working properly but he continued to vape.

Now this guy's mech mod stopped working for some reason, and he continued to try to vape it. As @Izan said, never do this with a mech. Just stop vaping immediately and do a complete inspection of the mod (heat), the battery (heat, wrap condition, arcing), and coil (coils touching where they shouldn't). You may not get any further warning except perhaps no vapor production.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Isn't that mod one of the more error prone mods available? Years ago, I had one that was had magnets for the switch. I looked long and hard at it for several days and decided to forego the chance at facial re-arrangement.

Not sure what happened in your posted video, @Punk In Drublic. The event certainly seemed to happen really fast. He did appear to be fiddling with his setup prior to the explosion, so maybe it wasn't working properly but he continued to vape.

Now this guy's mod stopped working for some reason, and he continued to try to vape it. As @Izan said, never do this. Just stop vaping immediately and do a complete inspection of the mod, the battery, and coil.

 

[Baditude]

Isn't that mod one of the more error prone mods available?

The one in the video? Or the one that exploded?

I don't see how anyone could identify a specific mod from that grainy video except that it "probably" was a mech.

The mod that exploded in the first vape related death was thought to be a mech made in the Phillipines. If you read that thread, I believe I posted a You Tube video review of that mech. From what I could tell that mech didn't have adequate venting.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Respectfully, using a mech, if you push the button and is does NOT fire, take it apart and find the problem.
DO NOT push the button again. That non-fire event WAS the warning.

Cheers
I

Yes I agree and looking at my above comment “without an ounce of warning” I did not mean it in that context (my bad!). I was eluding to how quickly a battery goes from venting to blowing up.

Saying that, are we 100% certain there will always be a warning sign prior to blowing up? We do not know why this individual’s device did not fire (or blow) on the first hit. If his fire button was not making contact, a course of action is to screw it in further. Perhaps he was aware of this which is why he screwed it in further (thats what is seems like in the video – but is speculation). And taking the device apart does not necessary mean he would have identified the fault to which we could have had the same result once reassembled.

Regardless, the point of my post was to identify that vent holes do not mean the device will not blow up.

 

[Baditude]

@Punk In Drublic , I could have misunderstood Mooch's description of battery venting vs thermal runaway, but my understanding was spontaneous thermal runaway (flames and explosion) is a relatively rare and unpredictable event. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

"It is quite difficult, but not impossible, to bring the temperature of a battery up quickly enough to go into thermal runaway without it venting first. About the only way to do it is with a short circuit.

Both venting and thermal runaway can take hours to occur or they can happen very quickly. You will typically be able to feel a battery getting hot before it vents but do not assume the same for preventing thermal runaway. That depends on a very, very fast rise in temperature, happening before the battery can vent. You might not feel the battery get hot first." -- Mooch​

• Li-Ion Battery Chemistries - What are the differences in their safety?

"It’s pretty simple IMO...short circuits. Batteries don’t explode on their own (okay, one in a million 18650’s can fail from an internal defect) or if they’re just being used hard. They might, maybe, vent if used VERY hard but they won’t go into thermal runaway. Just my opinion though." -- Mooch​

My point is, I guess, is that proper ventilation of a tube mech (as well as a regulated mod for that matter) could be considered a "layer of safety" should a venting battery incident occur, and may or may not prevent it from going into thermal runaway. I think that you could be correct in saying that vent holes would not prevent an explosion if a battery actually goes into thermal runaway very quickly. But, allegedly that is a rare event.

I also base my opinion on personal experience. Early on when I first began to vape on a tube mech mod, a battery vented and exploded when the fire button became depressed causing the battery to over-discharge. The hot gas escaped through the fire button as it was designed to do in that model, but the mod didn't actually explode like a pipe bomb. The mod was too hot to touch when I discovered that the battery had exploded. The pants pocket that the mod was being stored in was full of black residue and there was an awful burnt plastic/electrical odor in the room.

 

[bombastinator]

That's why I think there is a market for a "safer" 18650 battery - I believe any battery manufacturer who takes this seriously will reap a windfall. If you look at some of the things people get up to with them, it's scary. Mech mods + 18650's are without a doubt, way off the spec sheet, but people being people are innovative and frequently repurpose stuff. The amount of 18650 product out there is growing rapidly, and I can guarantee not all the designers will care about safety, reputation, electronic regulation, thermal/explosion containment or indeed their customers.

I never forget the phrase my dad told me over 50 years ago when he was teaching me how to tighten up screws etc. He said - if they don't go in, you can use a Birmingham screwdriver - e.g. a hammer !!!

I hope this chap doesn't get a short somewhere (and also that you are not from Birmingham) .

I agree. To do so though you have to effectively lower the energy density though. Either through increasing size or lowering reactivity. There actually used to be less reactive batteries available when sealed mech mods came out. We called them “IMR” batteries though I understand that term is not accurate. The higher energy density batteries surpassed them and the old ones are now at least for me impossible to find.
There are several emerging battery technologies such as solid polymer and glass batteries that promise to do just that. How effective they will turn out to be is still unknown.
Another problem is standardization which has its own complications and failed history

 

[Baditude]

That's why I think there is a market for a "safer" 18650 battery - I believe any battery manufacturer who takes this seriously will reap a windfall.

A couple of problems with this statement.

The vaping community represents only a small fraction of the consumer base for lithium ion batteries. A manufacturer would have to question if it would be financially worthwhile to invest the R&D to make a safer lithium battery to be used for vaping.

The best batteries available to vapers are made by Lg, Samsung, Sanyo, and Sony/Murata. It's quite clear that they don't even want vapers to be using their batteries. They design them to be used only in battery packs with protected BMS (battery management systems) for the auto and power tool industry.

Now, Mooch has been in contact with a Chinese brand manufacturer who might be willing to create a safer battery specifically for vaping, but in a poll that Mooch created, most vapers who responded to the poll desired a better performing battery rather than a safer battery. So much for wanting safer batteries.

”Cheating” on the Molicel new battery poll...really?

 

[Punk In Drublic]

@Punk In Drublic , I could have misunderstood Mooch's description of battery venting vs thermal runaway, but my understanding was spontaneous thermal runaway (flames and explosion) is a relatively rare and unpredictable event. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

"It is quite difficult, but not impossible, to bring the temperature of a battery up quickly enough to go into thermal runaway without it venting first. About the only way to do it is with a short circuit.

Both venting and thermal runaway can take hours to occur or they can happen very quickly. You will typically be able to feel a battery getting hot before it vents but do not assume the same for preventing thermal runaway. That depends on a very, very fast rise in temperature, happening before the battery can vent. You might not feel the battery get hot first." -- Mooch​

• Li-Ion Battery Chemistries - What are the differences in their safety?

"It’s pretty simple IMO...short circuits. Batteries don’t explode on their own (okay, one in a million 18650’s can fail from an internal defect) or if they’re just being used hard. They might, maybe, vent if used VERY hard but they won’t go into thermal runaway. Just my opinion though." -- Mooch​

My point is, I guess, is that proper ventilation of a tube mech (as well as a regulated mod for that matter) could be considered a "layer of safety" should a venting battery incident occur, and may or may not prevent it from going into thermal runaway. I think that you could be correct in saying that vent holes would not prevent an explosion if a battery actually goes into thermal runaway very quickly. But, allegedly that is a rare event.

I also base my opinion on personal experience. Early on when I first began to vape on a tube mech mod, a battery vented and exploded when the fire button became depressed causing the battery to over-discharge. The hot gas escaped through the fire button as it was designed to do in that model, but the mod didn't actually explode like a pipe bomb. The mod was too hot to touch when I discovered that the battery had exploded. The pants pocket that the mod was being stored in was full of black residue and there was an awful burnt plastic/electrical odor in the room.

Nice post!

Guess the question is how rare is thermal runaway? Within the “Exploding Vape” thread both you and I posted at least half a dozen incidents of thermal runaway. And in another thread I posted a link of 4 lawsuits from a single firm in regards to seeking compensation due to injuries caused by thermal runaway. And there are many more to be found on the web. Grant it, with all these cases thermal runaway just did not happen by itself (that is an assumption, there is the possibility the battery was defective), something had to have been the cause. But it does demonstrate that thermal runaway might be a tad more common than we think. The unfortunate reality is, when a battery reaches this point there are no safety measures other than running away should one even have the chance to do so.

Will assume you were not wearing the pants when the device went off?

 

[Baditude]

Will assume you were not wearing the pants when the device went off?

Your assumption is correct. The pants were in my work locker (I had changed into scrubs for the OR) and the mod was placed in a jeans front pocket. I returned to my locker for a quick stealth vape before surgery and found the mod was too hot to touch.

I wonder just how accurate those cases were that said it was thermal runaway? Or was it the mod exploded because of venting? How did they determine it?