New York Post and a deadly vape pen
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Anyone know how many vapers have a mech as their primary-use vape? Any rough ballparks? Sure, many OWN one, but that's not the same thing.
When I worked at the vape shop in 2013, observing what the customers were using, it was pretty much 50/50 mechs/regulated as the primary mod. Almost all of the sales staff were using mechs.
I vaped a mech at the shop only because the upper management demanded that the sales staff use something that was sold in the shop. One of my first mods was an AltSmoke Silver Bullet, so since I already had the SB I used that at work with a Kayfun RTA. When off work, I used a Provari and a cartotank or the Kayfun RTA.
The reason for the "use only what we sell" was Provari's were expensive and the shop wouldn't be able to sell them to make any profit. A couple of regular customers had purchased their own Provari's after seeing and vaping on mine. Management didn't like that.
I haven't really used a mech much since I retired and left the shop.
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Cool info. But if Juul has ?70%? of today's market.........
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.
Mark Twain / Leonard H. Courtney
Mark Twain / Leonard H. Courtney
A cell can go into runaway without warning and very quickly, without venting first. It typically takes a short circuit to do this, or what the cell “thinks” is a short circuit for its chemistry and the way it was constructed.
Just using it hard might make it vent but bringing it into runaway that way would be very hard to do unless the cell “thought” it was being short-circuited.
Thermal runaway is much more common than we think IMO and can be easy to do DEPENDING ON THE CELL...just short the battery. It might result in a not-too-violent event or it could be catastrophic.
Just for reference...international safety standards often use a 0.1 ohm load for short circuit tests. So, the question is...are we crazy or are they too easy on the cells for this test?
That statistic always surprises me. Must be the teens?
I was just trying to do a ....even bigger than ballpark...estimate about button presses on mechs per day, per vaper. So there's probably a billion presses per day. IDK what the real number is.
So if you figure that, I'm surprised we don't see more of these vids. I'm guessing that the number of hard-core mech users is relatively low as a % of the total user base. But I have nothing to back that up with. And then there's the "how often does it short" thing.
And the thermal runaway can, as I understand it, be a function of battery age too and general wear-and-tear on them, particularly for those running very low ohms constantly every day. Mooch could say more, but I think the electrolyte can break down over time and cause an INTERNAL SHORT and then you get runaway.
It's about stress.
It's about knowledge.
It's about random chance.
It's about the number of button presses per day per user and playing the odds.
I won't use one, at least as long as smart systems are available, with safeguards.
The odds are just too great that something random can happen, no matter how many checks I perform. It only takes once. But that's me.
It's great we have choices ... just remember, those points you just raised, like battery age, wear, and stress, are not mech only issues; a regulated mod does not protect you from overstressing a battery, it won't protect you from electrolyte breakdown, or an internal battery short, or random chance.
This speaks volumes! It only takes 1 incident to make you a statistic! Well said sir!
Very true! Another great post!
There may be something that many people don't realize about battery direction, especially in metal tube mechs.
In tube mech mods the end that is down is going to be connected to the ENTIRE body of the mod. As for the battery the whole canister of the battery is going to be negative and just the top button is positive.
In the event there is an unnoticed tear in the side of the battery wrap and the battery is installed upside down, then the whole body of the mod will be positively charged and the negatively charged canister of the battery will be completing a short circuit with the mod wall and BOOM. This is the fastest way to full thermal runaway.
If the battery is installed positive end up, then the mod body will be negatively charged and if the tear makes contact with the body then there is no short circuit. It is important to note that in this second case it could potentially bypass the switch (depending on fire button mechanics, and especially for bottom fire buttons) which would autofire the mod until the battery is drained (or you manage to remove the battery, which could be quite hot to touch) and could cause your wick to catch fire as juice starts to run out, but this is still better than an exploding battery. While this scenario could lead to venting if not caught fast enough, and even an explosion in a non-vented mod, it is still better than instant thermal runaway.
Moral of the story is always install batteries positive side up, AND always check your battery wraps.
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Agreed...mostly.
I say "mostly" because I think mech users OFTEN (but not always) stress their batteries more. That's often why they use mechs to begin with. IDK how many posts I've seen about "hard hitting"....
And that heat degrades batteries faster, IMO. I suppose you can say something similar for the regulated mod users, but my gut instinct is that they're easier on their batteries on average. And again, with a smart-device there's thermal and/or other internal checks that can be done, as well as the shorted-coil-check.
And the regulated mod WILL protect you from some of the "random chance" variable that short the coil (510 connector, or coil shorts).
Battery stressing vaping is also not a mech only thing ... indeed, probably more common with regulated vaping. 80w, 100w, 200w and more regulated mods, often sold in shops that only carry rewrap batteries with over stated ratings (and therefore more likely to be stressed by unwitting vapers).
Again, I don't think your gut has any basis in fact, and the thermal checks are on the board (to check for board heat) and not necessarily likely to be triggered by battery heat in a timely fashion (if triggered at all before "bad sh*t" (tm) happens).
Lastly, short protection MAY protect you from a short (electronic protections are not a guarantee by any means). I mean, regulated/protected mods aren't supposed to fire all by themselves while sitting on a table --- but they do ... and it is not a particularly rare event. And in such events, you'd think the 10-second cutoff would work, but it doesn't in many cases (or does, briefly, then it fires again right away for another 10-seconds ...). Eliquid can and does get to the boards/chips and can not only cause protections to not function correctly, it can also instigate situations that we hoped those protections would have mitigated.
Look, I get that you are wary of mechs ... who can blame you with the mech Fear Mongering out there, and right here on ECF for that matter. I would only ask you to A) try to do more Respect Mongering and Education Mongering than Fear Mongering, and B) make sure you apply that to ALL vaping whether regulated or mechanical --- we don't want to see harm (or worse) come to any vapers, no matter their chosen vaping path.
1) I like your sig.
2) I respect you personally.
3) But your post reads more like rationalization than "factual" (in quotes, as I guessed too).
There's more "there" there with regulated mods. You can rationalize a lot of stuff, but most regulated vapers don't vape at those high watts, the checks CAN include resistance checks of the battery, and the main point in one of my posts was lack-of-venting. I know people will always find reasons to like what they like. And with mechs, it's mostly YOUR face you will blow off, so I guess I don't really have a leg to stand on until someone's mech hurts a bystander. But then, all bets are off.
There is no 100% safe battery use for anything, regulated or not. But that said, so far you're running 2 for 2 on "your side" on the death count. That starts to be indicative of a problem somewhere. Like I said, in this or another thread, I wouldn't ban mechs, but I'd seriously consider venting/runaway standards in the design. Calling it "fear mongering" is trite and dismissive, IMO.
I've not claimed that regulated mods can't have problems, that batteries can't have problems regardless of where they are used. But when we (society) start to see usage, problem, and catastrophic death patterns, we start to take serious notice.
Am I fear mongering? IDK. Am I listening to fear mongering? IDK. I think I'm advocating for venting standards. Not saying much more than that really. But I do suspect a usage pattern problem here as well. As in hard-hitting hi-wattage vaping without regulated devices. Or just lack of using the locking ring, and making a mistake. And of course the inevitable/eventual shorts play into it too.
2) I respect you personally.
3) But your post reads more like rationalization than "factual" (in quotes, as I guessed too).
There's more "there" there with regulated mods. You can rationalize a lot of stuff, but most regulated vapers don't vape at those high watts, the checks CAN include resistance checks of the battery, and the main point in one of my posts was lack-of-venting. I know people will always find reasons to like what they like. And with mechs, it's mostly YOUR face you will blow off, so I guess I don't really have a leg to stand on until someone's mech hurts a bystander. But then, all bets are off.
There is no 100% safe battery use for anything, regulated or not. But that said, so far you're running 2 for 2 on "your side" on the death count. That starts to be indicative of a problem somewhere. Like I said, in this or another thread, I wouldn't ban mechs, but I'd seriously consider venting/runaway standards in the design. Calling it "fear mongering" is trite and dismissive, IMO.
I've not claimed that regulated mods can't have problems, that batteries can't have problems regardless of where they are used. But when we (society) start to see usage, problem, and catastrophic death patterns, we start to take serious notice.
Am I fear mongering? IDK. Am I listening to fear mongering? IDK. I think I'm advocating for venting standards. Not saying much more than that really. But I do suspect a usage pattern problem here as well. As in hard-hitting hi-wattage vaping without regulated devices. Or just lack of using the locking ring, and making a mistake. And of course the inevitable/eventual shorts play into it too.
And like ScottP alluded to above, the very design of the mech + battery makes venting either A) Toward the face or B) increases the risk of a short if the battery is inverted, unless there's an insulator in good condition along the inside of the metal shell/tube.
On my regulated mod, the battery is inserted positive end down. BUT...since it's a regulated mod, the shell is still ground and the circuit routes back up to the positive pin somehow. Sure, people can always claim that something can go wrong there too, but the odds of that are low due to the design. A scratched or melted battery wrap isn't catastrophic, since shell-is-ground.
On my regulated mod, the battery is inserted positive end down. BUT...since it's a regulated mod, the shell is still ground and the circuit routes back up to the positive pin somehow. Sure, people can always claim that something can go wrong there too, but the odds of that are low due to the design. A scratched or melted battery wrap isn't catastrophic, since shell-is-ground.
I think we are picking at unnecessary specifics here. In the end it is absolutely critical our battery wraps are in pristine condition. I would not put faith in any device to protect me from a battery short due to torn wraps.
Regardless of device we need to understand the risks and respect the device and the cells in which they house. Protection circuitry and or proper venting is not a safe guard against thermal runaway - and we can see proof that thermal run away is obtainable in both a mech or circuit-based devices.
It maybe fact that the fatalities so far are only from mech users – but given the rise in popularity with vaping, and the increased sales of regulated devices, I am afraid to say it is only a matter of time before a regulated user becomes the next statistic. To the governing bodies that wish to shut vaping down it is not a matter of misuse, torn wraps or even lack of protection circuitry – they are only counting the fatalities and serious injuries and using that to wield their ban hammer. Until fail safe batteries reach the market the best we can do as a community is educate about the risks and proper battery safety. Saving 1 user from becoming a statistic is 1 less incident that can be used against us.
Regardless of device we need to understand the risks and respect the device and the cells in which they house. Protection circuitry and or proper venting is not a safe guard against thermal runaway - and we can see proof that thermal run away is obtainable in both a mech or circuit-based devices.
It maybe fact that the fatalities so far are only from mech users – but given the rise in popularity with vaping, and the increased sales of regulated devices, I am afraid to say it is only a matter of time before a regulated user becomes the next statistic. To the governing bodies that wish to shut vaping down it is not a matter of misuse, torn wraps or even lack of protection circuitry – they are only counting the fatalities and serious injuries and using that to wield their ban hammer. Until fail safe batteries reach the market the best we can do as a community is educate about the risks and proper battery safety. Saving 1 user from becoming a statistic is 1 less incident that can be used against us.
That is good to know, see even doing it the, hmm, not the best way I managed to stay unscathed, and even got some new knowledge for better vaping habits, there really is no reason for anyone not to know this stuff. I seldom use tube Mechs, I guess I do put the battery up on the one hybrid I own, I’m more a squonker, and then I only occasionally use squonk mechs.
I guess, though that would be true for all mechs, I find what you are saying, which I admit is completely logical, to be at odds with what the manufacturers are now producing, on some of my squonk mechs they have even put a plus symbol, and the vents, on the bottom of the mod. It is kind of disheartening given what you are saying, almost like the users, and manufacturers are not on the same page. See this is the kind of thing makes me wonder if some regulations, like if they were actually relevant regulations, would not be such a heinous thing, maybe even beneficial if they were “let’s have set safety guidelines” regulations instead of some witless “ban on fruity flavors” regulations.
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This is only half right i.e., Always check your wraps. Yes. As for battery orientation, there is no single best battery orientation for mechs. Different mechs have different designs and you should orient the battery accordingly. If you are unsure, find out.
I should add that if it is a box style, and squonks are, and they use a plastic battery sled and wires to connect from the sled to the button and to the 510 so this isn't so much an issue.
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