New York Post and a deadly vape pen

[mcclintock]

It's like no time has passed since the first death in those reports, as they act like no one knows any more about what happened. Perhaps they could use this as an opportunity to dig deeper and report better, even if it is a while until more is know about this newer case.

A common point of confusion seems to be between battery unit and battery cell. I think the term "mod" isn't at all self-explanatory and adds to the confusion.

stols001 post #81: electrician, not electrical engineer. Very different. Still seems questionable.

 

[Mooch]

What if the barrel of a tube mech was made of a vented deformable material?

Better for handling/releasing thermal runaway pressure but threading it could be problematic (too soft?) and you might need a new mech if you drop it.

 

[charlie1465]

Shrapnel could come from thin-wall pen devices, the atty, or from the battery itself.

I was just reading a paper about li-ion failure mechanisms and the higher capacity cells generated about 8 liters of gas...a lot!

Glad you agree it's one of the subjects surrounded by an air of insufficient knowledge which bugs me a bit

Jeez...8 litres is a huge amount...what size batteries was this referring to?? Important to know as if even 4 litres can be ejected by a 21700 for example then I would change my views considerably...?

With all the variations between mechs and batteries I don’t think we could come up with anything helpful unless we determined the highest internal pressure level that any of the mech could possibly see and then set that as the standard for any mech to survive.

As you say I agree that setting an absolute pressure level from legislative global safety standpoint is probably not going to happen. However I do think that we could improve on what we have at the moment

Retesting of all available mechs would need to be done regularly to see if the standards needed to be adjusted. Or, the target pressure level during venting would have to be set so low that no crappy mech could ever split/separate from it.

But the small mech companies couldn’t afford this testing (money and time) and China won’t do it IMO. But perhaps I’m just cranky today.

I’m wondering if every mech would have to end up looking like the AR mech to guarantee it could not fail.

Let's look at what we have at the moment....we simply don't know what is safe to use from a venting perspective and the only responsible advice that should be given is to 1)venting/thermal runaway prevention and best practice...and 2) The only type of mech mod you should use is one like the AR above or possibly one with vent holes just above the battery like in the vindicator by Kennedy.

IMO number 1 should apply to all li-ion battery use in any device but 2 is too broad in its scope and probably unnecessarily castigates some perfectly good and safe mech's whether they be chinese or not.

This is where we could do better, and the companies (even small ones) could do better in my view

Some test's between existing mech's like the vindicator (top ventilation) and another with bottom ventilation could be done without too much cost and then if both are found to be safe in a venting incident we could move the criteria to a different type of venting (such as inter-fire button ventilation) and etc, etc, until you were getting catastrophic failure.

I think that this could be accomplished and would give us the ability to advise accordingly. Eg. That we know that the safest mech's use 'these' types of ventilation whilst at the moment it almost is the case that we've got to recommend something like the above pic to be safe. This has resulted in a huge amount of vapors being irrationally afraid of mech mods and also that nagging doubt for users whether their current setup would/could kill them if they were really unlucky....

I'm going to tie this up now and hope that we eventually move a little further in our knowledge of mech's in the future. Also really hope that if you @Mooch got the offer of some throw away kit that you would take on the type of experiment highlighted above I know it's not a terribly pleasant job....a reinforced concrete box buried in the garden springs to mind

Good luck to you @Mooch and thanks for doing what you do do

 

[Mordacai]

Mooch, I was thinking that the end caps could be made out of machined metal components. Barrel would be sacrificed in the event of a catastrophic failure then. As when it happens, you can't stop it. But you may be able to control it somewhat.

 

[Mooch]

Glad you agree it's one of the subjects surrounded by an air of insufficient knowledge which bugs me a bit

Jeez...8 litres is a huge amount...what size batteries was this referring to?? Important to know as if even 4 litres can be ejected by a 21700 for example then I would change my views considerably...?



As you say I agree that setting an absolute pressure level from legislative global safety standpoint is probably not going to happen. However I do think that we could improve on what we have at the moment



Let's look at what we have at the moment....we simply don't know what is safe to use from a venting perspective and the only responsible advice that should be given is to 1)venting/thermal runaway prevention and best practice...and 2) The only type of mech mod you should use is one like the AR above or possibly one with vent holes just above the battery like in the vindicator by Kennedy.

IMO number 1 should apply to all li-ion battery use in any device but 2 is too broad in its scope and probably unnecessarily castigates some perfectly good and safe mech's whether they be chinese or not.

This is where we could do better, and the companies (even small ones) could do better in my view

Some test's between existing mech's like the vindicator (top ventilation) and another with bottom ventilation could be done without too much cost and then if both are found to be safe in a venting incident we could move the criteria to a different type of venting (such as inter-fire button ventilation) and etc, etc, until you were getting catastrophic failure.

I think that this could be accomplished and would give us the ability to advise accordingly. Eg. That we know that the safest mech's use 'these' types of ventilation whilst at the moment it almost is the case that we've got to recommend something like the above pic to be safe. This has resulted in a huge amount of vapors being irrationally afraid of mech mods and also that nagging doubt for users whether their current setup would/could kill them if they were really unlucky....

I'm going to tie this up now and hope that we eventually move a little further in our knowledge of mech's in the future. Also really hope that if you @Mooch got the offer of some throw away kit that you would take on the type of experiment highlighted above I know it's not a terribly pleasant job....a reinforced concrete box buried in the garden springs to mind

Good luck to you @Mooch and thanks for doing what you do do

It was a high capacity 18650 (I don’t remember the number) that released 8 liters of gas.
Higher capacity cells could release more, of any size. It’s the amount of active material that would matter though, not necessarily the size of the cell’s can.

Living in Manhattan makes outdoor destructive testing impossible. I think I’m going to let someone else be exposed to all that toxic crap during each cleanup of the box in their backyard test hole.

The number of tests though would takes months to complete even if done full time. We couldn’t make any conclusions regarding mechs and venting unless it was that comprehensive. Otherwise all we could say was that one particular mech with a particular battery in runaway had something particular happen that one time.

Every model of mech could have burst pressure tolerances due to the threading. We’d have to test several of each mech, and each metal type for each mech, just to check for that alone.

Then we have to check if tightening the mech together differently makes a difference in burst pressure tolerance or not.

Do different atomizers, with their thread tolerances, make a difference in pressure tolerance?

Just testing several of each of a few dozen batteries would be a daunting task too.

Comprehensive testing that provides really useful data which can stand up to scrutiny takes a huge amount of effort. It’s so easy otherwise for someone to say “but what if...” and make everyone else wonder if your results are valid.

Anything less than that will make for some interesting video but will only lead to more debate as it couldn’t be used to really answer our questions conclusively.

I would LOVE to see this testing done, truly, but I think it would have to be a community funded effort to pay a lab or university to do it. Just my personal thoughts though.

 

[charlie1465]

It was a high capacity 18650 (I don’t remember the number) that released 8 liters of gas.

This has really, both surprised me and totally changed my view on the likelyhood of a catastrophic event...that's a lot of gas!

Living in Manhattan makes outdoor destructive testing impossible. I think I’m going to let someone else be exposed to all that toxic crap during each cleanup of the box in their backyard test hole.

Ok agreed...the funny thing is I had you living somewhere rural and perhaps hunting at the weekend Apologies...just goes to show that my biases are alive and well...perhaps it was the hat?

Comprehensive testing that provides really useful data which can stand up to scrutiny takes a huge amount of effort. It’s so easy otherwise for someone to say “but what if...” and make everyone else wonder if your results are valid.

Yes I semi agree with this but still think we could easily come further, somewhat than we are now. I for one certainly have the 'what if...' feeling concerning a lot of the facts at the moment.

I would LOVE to see this testing done, truly, but I think it would have to be a community funded effort to pay a lab or university to do it. Just my personal thoughts though.

Yes me too...I might be interested in doing some of it if it was funded. Maybe that's how it could work? Eg. Several willing community members could test some of the processes necessary and then the information could be collated?

Thanks for taking the time to chat through this @Mooch. I've certainly learn't something about the gas volume potentially involved. And heey every conversation might bring the issue closer to a solution Good luck to you

 

[stols001]

You are correct, electrician is something completely different. LOL.

I kind of think that the difference between a trade and a degree is sort of the underlying fundamentals, versus "how do I do X?" I will say, maybe not ALL of it but a lot of it.

(Most) engineers know enough to a) research what they are doing, if they are doing something new, and b) know enough to be utterly terrified of doing something they RECOGNIZE could be unsafe.

When the husband decided to (sort of illegally I think) switch out the fuse box to our house back east in preparation for sale, he called the power company, like 3 or 4 times, verifying the power was actually OFF (this was Baltimore though) and tested just about over half of the power outlets and etc, and then called the power company AGAIN.

He still says he went "weak at the knees" and prayed hard, as the was attaching it. This is because he like, knew he was tapping into "possible instant death."

I can pretty much guarantee if we had called an electrician they might not have been QUITE that thorough, and electricians electrocute themselves all the TIME. Etc.

So perhaps said electrician had a false sense of security about things, if anything, although I certainly don't know enough about the situation to speculate and etc.

Anna

 

[Eskie]

6-7 L of gas?? On my back of the napkin calculation (I was having breakfast and yes, forgot to just do it on the phone, so there, I'm an idiot) an 18650 tube would have about 700 ml volume EMPTY, no battery. Pumping 7L of gas in there is a huge amount of pressure to deal with. I'm surprised vent holes typically drilled by the maker or the user with a drill press can even do anything. I can absolutely see failure at the 510 threads on a hybrid/faux hybrid as the weak spot which is pointed at your face. We've a mech with a true 510 connector on it would have to be extremely well secured to try and contain that pressure change, assuming you had another path to relieve it, even if it releases slower than optimal (too small holes). And as for that sorta open honeycomb tube, it'll certainly vent well, but right into your palm. Not the best injury to suffer either if you hold your mod in your dominant hand. Pretty major morbidity if you need that hand, which just about all of us do.

The thing I like about my mech squonks is not only the big hole for squonking that can release a lot of gas but that the whole door would pop right off. Still a scary event with the probability for some injury but nothing like shooting your tank into your head or neck. Same on my regulated mods with removable panels of some sort for access to the battery sled, if everything goes wrong the door pops right off. On mods with bottom latch doors, well I'll assume that latch is the weakest spot so the bottom should fly open.

Maybe one solution would he a pop off bottom cap. It obviously would need to make good electrical contact so the device is usable, but if the battery vents better the whole cap pops off away from you, although the battery may well get propelled out as a projectile, good for you, less so for anyone standing next to you.

 

[englishmick]

There's no way to make a vape that is 100% guaranteed safe. We are using potentially dangerous batteries, sometimes at a power drain level well outside their intended use that is pushing close to the failure point. We are relying on the integrity of a paper thin plastic wrap and various mechanical and electrical components like button switches and boards, all of which could fail. We hope a small piece of metal doesn't fall off something in the wrong place. The human operator has to be knowledgeable and never make a mistake.

Probably the only way to guarantee safety is for someone to invent a battery that can't explode. There have been some hints of that, but it's still a long way off.

The good news is that you don't have to get to perfection, or at least you shouldn't have to. Millions of people have vaped for years without any problems, in a completely unregulated industry. A handful have had incidents serious enough to cause physical harm. Vaping with a mech is probably hundreds of times safer than deep frying turkeys.

I think it's reasonable to look at ways of reducing the most obvious risks. Like they shouldn't explode if you put them in your pocket and the on button gets pressed. The most likely outcome though is that mech mods will be banned. Turkey frying pots don't have the most powerful corporations on the planet working to get them banned.

 

[jandrew]

6-7 L of gas?? On my back of the napkin calculation (I was having breakfast and yes, forgot to just do it on the phone, so there, I'm an idiot) an 18650 tube would have about 700 ml volume EMPTY, no battery.

Methinks there is something wrong with your napkin ... 700ml in an 18650 tube? Must be one seriously stacked mod.
I'm looking at a 10ml dripper bottle on my table and thinking it would take less than two of those to fill an empty single 18650 tube mod (assuming the vent holes were plugged)

 

[englishmick]

Methinks there is something wrong with your napkin ... 700ml in an 18650 tube? Must be one seriously stacked mod.
I'm looking at a 10ml dripper bottle on my table and thinking it would take less than two of those to fill an empty single 18650 tube mod (assuming the vent holes were plugged)

Decimal point slippage is a well known problem with napkins. It's because they are so porous. That's why the back of an envelope is much better for calculations.

 

[Eskie]

Yup. Ye old decimal point. I think I was over excited at the 7L of vent gas. You're talking about some major pressure with that much gas at 1 atm. Whats depressing is how much worse it it when you do move the decimal place.

I gotta remember to use my phone for this stuff. That's one of the things it's for. Keeping you from looking stupid on forums.

 

[stols001]

Whenever I use my phone for photographs people make fun of my blur filter....

To be fair whenever I try to do math, people make fun of me PERIOD.

People are just jerks, sometimes. I find the missing decimal point not that big a deal personally, but then again, we are talking math, and some people consider being off by a factor of (wherever the decimal point goes, I'd say 10 but you know, it could be more or less) to be not that big a deal, barely worthy of comment.

Which is why people make fun of me, that sort of um, insouciant attitude toward problems. My mom tutored me for my SATs and yes my scores were raised but one particularly tense (for me) session, involved my mom deciding we were going to "investigate a problem's wrongness and figure out why."

To which I replied, "Jeez. There will be a BILLION math problems in my future that I might get right. What is ONE problem, compared to that? I say we move on, I don't CARE why it's wrong, lets just move to one I have at least the POSSIBLITY of getting right,..."

My mom and husband totally bonded over their incredulity that anyone could feel that way about math. I so do. LOL.

Anna

 

[Mooch]

0

6-7 L of gas?? On my back of the napkin calculation (I was having breakfast and yes, forgot to just do it on the phone, so there, I'm an idiot) an 18650 tube would have about 700 ml volume EMPTY, no battery. Pumping 7L of gas in there is a huge amount of pressure to deal with. I'm surprised vent holes typically drilled by the maker or the user with a drill press can even do anything. I can absolutely see failure at the 510 threads on a hybrid/faux hybrid as the weak spot which is pointed at your face. We've a mech with a true 510 connector on it would have to be extremely well secured to try and contain that pressure change, assuming you had another path to relieve it, even if it releases slower than optimal (too small holes). And as for that sorta open honeycomb tube, it'll certainly vent well, but right into your palm. Not the best injury to suffer either if you hold your mod in your dominant hand. Pretty major morbidity if you need that hand, which just about all of us do.

The thing I like about my mech squonks is not only the big hole for squonking that can release a lot of gas but that the whole door would pop right off. Still a scary event with the probability for some injury but nothing like shooting your tank into your head or neck. Same on my regulated mods with removable panels of some sort for access to the battery sled, if everything goes wrong the door pops right off. On mods with bottom latch doors, well I'll assume that latch is the weakest spot so the bottom should fly open.

Maybe one solution would he a pop off bottom cap. It obviously would need to make good electrical contact so the device is usable, but if the battery vents better the whole cap pops off away from you, although the battery may well get propelled out as a projectile, good for you, less so for anyone standing next to you.

The top portion would also be propelled up though. Not as hard/fast, due to its increased mass, but worth testing.

 

[Morgan_Drury]

2. Wouldn't be the first alleged Licensed Electrician who didn't fully understand the relationship between battery amp limits and coil resistance as it relates to vaping in my experience.

As surprising as I wish this was, we live in a world where the percentage of cashiers that correctly give back change using basic math when there's a power outage and no available phone handy to use is sadly higher than you'd imagine.

 

[Eskie]

0


The top portion would also be propelled up though. Not as hard/fast, due to its increased mass, but worth testing.

True. Action reaction. But the mod has more mass so it will accelerate to a lesser degree and if this occurs under conditions of use will already be gripped in your hand which should counter much of that force. At least it would be a more controlled action than launching the atty out under the force of that rapidly expanding gas. The diameter of the tube where the cap is located may be large enough to allow venting of the gas with far less pressure than through the narrower 510 opening.

I don't know how a pure mech can ever be assembled with as close as zero risk in use when the variables of battery selection and resistive load are unpredictable. I'm not even sure trying to solve that is even cost effective as most tube mechs come from small specialty manufacturers with limited funds to devote to extensive testing in what is now a small market.

For current tube mech users who are well acquainted with the risks and knowledgeable about battery selection and proper resistive loads of their builds finding ways of quickly handling a venting battery are important. But as it is a dwindling market (ECF members are a minority of vapers and a smaller minority among members of safe mech use) any advances are likely to come from the community itself much as when "mods" we're first born. To me that's not so terrible as it forces novices to obtain and be educated in the use of mechs from experienced vapers and not an online vendor o store employee who has no clue what they're selling the customer other than it's expensive so good for business.

 

[Morgan_Drury]

True. Action reaction. But the mod has more mass so it will accelerate to a lesser degree and if this occurs under conditions of use will already be gripped in your hand which should counter much of that force. At least it would be a more controlled action than launching the atty out under the force of that rapidly expanding gas. The diameter of the tube where the cap is located may be large enough to allow venting of the gas with far less pressure than through the narrower 510 opening.

By the time I got to the last sentence, my mind had decide to play out a scene similar to this.

Make sure to read the speech bubble. It takes this to another level.

 

[Morgan_Drury]

He still says he went "weak at the knees" and prayed hard, as the was attaching it. This is because he like, knew he was tapping into "possible instant death."

I know that feeling on a deeper level while dealing with transformers.

You know how when the bomb squad gets called, a defuser steps up to test his luck.

Everytime I had to deal with one, regardless of whether it was just for routine maintenance or otherwise, I felt like I was the guy that drew the short straw and my family was about to get a phone call that would make their day.

I'm going to share some info. Just imagine all the possibilities of why it decide to suddenly fail or delayed and you just happen to be around it/dealing with it.

So basically because of anything that has transpired with it over the course of it's existance to nothing having transpired and it decides it no longer wants to be the transformer it was a day ago. Like as if it just choose today to be a great day for a midlife crisis.

 

[Baditude]

For what its worth...

E-Cigarette Explosions: Comprehensive List
There have been 50 major incidents this year (2016) alone and that's just the ones which make the news. They also go on to say...
"It is interesting to note that the nature of e-cigarette explosions has changed over the years. The FEMA document cited above suggests that approximately 80 percent of e-cigarette explosions happen during charging. In addition, most e-cigarette explosions that occurred before early 2015 involved no reported injuries. However, people began to experience different types of e-cigarette explosions when sub-ohm vaping and mods with removable batteries became more popular. More than ever, e-cigarettes explode during use. Explosions resulting from people carrying spare batteries in their pockets are also far more common. Regardless of the circumstances, e-cigarette explosions are far more likely to cause injuries today than they were in the past."Tobacco Truth: E-Cigarette Battery Hazards Minuscule and Overblown


- Sealed metal tubes will probably explode if a battery vents violently
-The battery itself may physically block gas from escaping to the bottom of the mod
- Small vents at the bottom of the tube are useless, only very large gas vents near the top have a good chance of preventing an explosion
- Building coils lower than 0.2 ohm will raise the amp draw exponentially and this increases risk - the power graph shows a significant change at 0.2 ohms and starts to climb vertically as resistance is reduced further.

1.0 ohm = 4.2 amp draw
0.9 ohm = 4.6 amp draw
0.8 ohm = 5.2 amp draw
0.7 ohms = 6 amp draw
0.6 ohms = 7 amp draw
0.5 ohms = 8.4 amp draw
0.4 ohms = 10.5 amp draw
0.3 ohms = 14.0 amp draw
0.2 ohms = 21.0 amp draw
0.14 ohms = 30 amp draw
0.1 ohms = 42.0 amp draw
0.0 ohms = dead short = battery vents or goes into thermal runaway​

- Using cheap batteries with ultra low res coils is a certain route to high risk - it needs 30 amp batteries of guaranteed high quality
- Using long draws or machine-gun draws to create monster clouds stresses the battery much more
- Cloud Contests are events where people put ultra high stress on their rig to create monster clouds; if spectating, you could consider standing at the back of the room to stay safe
- If you run a Cloud Contest then you should probably check that your personal and business insurance is really, really good and is appropriate for dangerous sports
- People are now discussing the safety (!) involved with putting 100-amp pulses on their batteries in order to create the biggest clouds with the lowest resistance coils; there is only one way this is going to go and you don't want to be within the explosion radius: someone may have a counterfeit battery, or one that is just too small for this extreme usage mode together with ignoring the device getting warm or even hot.​

I also believe, based on my own experience working in a vape shop, that many so-called cloud chasers are using re-wrap brands with falsely inflated max discharge ratings because they have been advertised as a 40 amp or higher battery.

Just a few examples:

• AWT Yellow 40A 2600mAh 18650 Bench Test Results...only a 20A battery
• AWT Red/Black 50A 2600mAn 18650 Bench Retest Results...preposterously overrated, now lower grade
• AWT Red 35A 3000mAh 18650...ridiculously overrated, not IMR
• AWT Red 40A 3000mAh 18650...enough is enough, just don’t buy it.
• AWT Black 50A 3000mAh 18650...obscenely overrated, DO NOT BUY
• AWT Patterned Wrap 40A 3300mAh 18650...obscenely overrated, DO NOT BUY
• AWT 35A 3500mAh 18650...laughably overrated, only an 8A battery, do not buy

I picked on AWT, but this practice is by no means limited to this brand.

 

[ScottP]

Whenever I use my phone for photographs people make fun of my blur filter....

To be fair whenever I try to do math, people make fun of me PERIOD.

People are just jerks, sometimes. I find the missing decimal point not that big a deal personally, but then again, we are talking math, and some people consider being off by a factor of (wherever the decimal point goes, I'd say 10 but you know, it could be more or less) to be not that big a deal, barely worthy of comment.

If you really think a decimal point error is "not that big a deal, barely worthy of comment", then try this experiment. Get a pot and put in 1.25 cups of water. Make a mental note of how full/empty it looks. Then dump it out and try to put in 12.5 cups of water. You will see just how big of a difference it can be. Now imagine making this mistake with something that could kill you.