Nicotine less addictive via vaping then smoking?

[VNeil]

I am uncomfortable with the term "harm reduction" used here because it implies that there is a known and quantifiable harm involved in vaping. And the fact is that there isn't. There are only speculations.

There is nothing wrong with vaping unflavored if you believe the unknown and unquantifiable risks of flavoring are not worthwhile for you. But I think for discussion purposes the risk should be well defined. And in truth it is an totally unknown and speculative risk.

(I don't want to get into the details of the flavoring debate, I'll just say that I'm not personally convinced it is beyond pure speculation at this point in time.)

When I am asked "is it safe" I avoid talking in terms of "safe" or "harm" or "harm reduction" because those are all terms subject to qualification that can be easily misused.

My response, always: "There are no known credible studies indicating any harm from vaping"

Short, sweet, and to the best of my knowledge, 100% accurate.

 

[zoiDman]

I am uncomfortable with the term "harm reduction" used here because it implies that there is a known and quantifiable harm involved in vaping. And the fact is that there isn't. There are only speculations.

...

OK.

I happen to Like the Term Harm Reduction myself. Seems to be Appropriate seeing that I can't Definitively say "Harm Elimination" in Good Faith.

 

[VNeil]

Where are you getting all these Numbers like 99%? Or "the fact that we are all affected by the ANTZ propaganda"?

Please Exclude me from the Gross Generalities of what You believe that All Vapers Feel or Think.

My numbers are based on my assessment of the thousands of posts I've read here the past year. Virtually every opinion on the relative safety of vaping is warped by the propaganda, even by the most truly devout. That is my opinion, and my assessment. I've already explained, as best I can, why I saw it in your own responses. You are free to disagree of course, as I would expect you to.
And I consider myself open minded enough to see it in my own thinking. I know I've been propagandized and yet it is extremely difficult to fight it. The power of propaganda is far greater than most people will admit. I at least admit it even if I can't incise it from my brain.

 

[VNeil]

OK.

I happen to Like the Term Harm Reduction myself. Seems to be Appropriate seeing that I can't Definitively say "Harm Elimination" in Good Faith.

I think you have difficulty dealing with the idea of the unknown, as most people do, and I am not immune either. I choose not to choose between something like "harm reduction" or "harm elimination" because that choice requires an assessment of an unknown. I am comfortable with accepting the idea of the unknown. Some aren't. You have to look deep into yourself to see where you fall on that.

If you are interested in testing the degree to which you've been propagandized consider this:

It is a FACT that we deal with many similarly unknown risks in our lives. If we worry inordinately about the unknown risks of vaping, then why do we do that? Why do we not spend similar amounts of time arguing and debating those other unknowns? Why the inordinate FUD?

I believe the answer to that is simply that there are no "powers that be" interested in propagandizing us about those unknown risks. The money trails simply don't go there. And in the end it's all about the money, in terms of what subjects we are or aren't propagandized.

 

[VNeil]

I look at it this way. If we weren't here, Running Off the Rails, and making Life Miserable for the MODs, we would be Out There doing it in Bars and Restaurants and Movie Theaters and Grocery Stores and ...

At least Here, we are All in One Place. And it is Easy to Throw a Net over us.

I'm not convinced there aren't a lot of people "here", "doing this", in bars and restaurants, on their cell phones and tablets

 

[skoony]

Where are you getting all these Numbers like 99%? Or "the fact that we are all affected by the ANTZ propaganda"?

Please Exclude me from the Gross Generalities of what You believe that All Vapers Feel or Think.

this is partly my fault as perhaps some do not realize my
views are skewed. i am going to be 60 years old this month.
its fair to say i have been to a lot of rodeo's. maybe to many.
i grew up when smoking was as normal as staring at your
cell phone wondering mindlessly down the side walk.
then the ban creep started ending up with complete
indoor bands. i seen the businesses that were destroyed.
i heard all the propaganda. i bucked up and carried on.
i still smoked.
now i am seeing the exact same thing,happening the exact
same way. to say i have a serious case of Deja Vu would
be an understatement.
i will admit i have my biases. however they are tempered
by a perspective that perhaps comes from age as much
as anything else. i have seen all this before.
i am none to thrilled by seeing it again.

anyways keep up the keeping up.
there are some pretty good points on both sides.
regards
mike

 

[DC2]

I also believe the pretty much all of us have been affected by the propaganda to some extent.
They've been pushing it down our throats for over three decades now.

I am also quite certain they are following the same path with their opposition to vaping.
And are hoping to achieve exactly the same results.

 

[zoiDman]

My numbers are based on my assessment of the thousands of posts I've read here the past year. Virtually every opinion on the relative safety of vaping is warped by the propaganda, even by the most truly devout. That is my opinion, and my assessment. I've already explained, as best I can, why I saw it in your own responses. You are free to disagree of course, as I would expect you to.
And I consider myself open minded enough to see it in my own thinking. I know I've been propagandized and yet it is extremely difficult to fight it. The power of propaganda is far greater than most people will admit. I at least admit it even if I can't incise it from my brain.

OK...

But here is the Deal. I am a Big Believer in Adults making Informed Decisions about what they Choose to put in their Body.

If a Person asked a Question about Nicotine "Addiction" ( or Dependency or Habitual Habit or Ritualistic Acts or Whatever a person wants to call it ) and the Discussion degrades to "Your Opinion is just the Product of ANTZ Propaganda", then you can't have much of a Discussion.

Or if a Thread is Started about Diacetyl and or Acetyl Propionyl, and one side says... "This is just what the ANTZ want you to Think", can much information be Presented?

Or if a Person wants to Talk about Potential Risks in e-Cigarette use, and someone post... "That's how ANTZ Think. I bet you are in Favor of Deeming.", how does this make the e-Cigarette Community Better?

Falling back on Everything is ANTZ Propaganda or an ANTZ View seems to just be a Cop Out. And something some Members like to use to Try and Discredit an Individual to somehow Bolster their own Position.

Calling people ANTZ or Implying that they do not have Enough Free will to do their Own Research, and Reach their Own Informed Decisions does Nothing but Stifle the Free Exchange of Opinions and Individual Views.

I'm not trying to Single you Out. And I'm not saying that your Opinion of ANTZ Propaganda hasn't had a Great Effect on the Uninformed General Public. I just don't think that Argument is as Valid here inside this Forum where Just About Everyone has seen the Benefits of Using an e-Cigarette.

The ECF is a Great place where people can Come to Glean Information and Hopefully make a More Informed Choice about e-Cigarettes. And they do so by Hearing many Different Views of Varying Degrees.

 

[VNeil]

More food for thought... consider this generic statement I mentioned previously that I believe many here subscribe to...

"I believe vaping is less harmful than cigs but it can't be healthy"

Consider the facts:

1. In small doses, (a synthetically produced form of) nicotine, known as Niacin (aka Nicotinic Acid) is a popular vitamin supplement with known health benefits. The FDA recommended amounts of Niacin taken in supplements appear to be similar to the amounts of nicotine many of us vape (up to 35mg/day per the Mayo Clinic). Look it up.

2. Nicotine, in "heavy doses" that we vape, is known to aid in the alleviation of various neurological symptoms, and without any known significant side effects, unlike most drugs used to treat those diseases now. And in fact much of what we know as facts about nicotine dependency is a byproduct of those studies.

3. PG is known to be antibacterial and antiviral. There is at least one study, that has been linked here on this site, suggesting that inhaling PG helps to prevent colds and flu.

It is possible, and this is pure speculation, that PG could also help to mitigate other ailments. For example, I believe there is some thought that lung cancer may be caused by a virus. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that PG might just help kill that very nasty virus, assuming it even exists and is the proximate cause for that terrible disease. Just to say that blind speculation can cut both ways. There may be other ailments associated with our respiratory system that would benefit from regular inhalation of PG

4. It is a FACT that any significant possible harm caused by vaping is pure speculation, based on the idea of we can't prove that negative. None of it is proved, verses the clear peer reviewed evidence of the above.

So... it seems to me, objectively reviewing the FACTS we know, that it is far more likely that vaping is healthy and promotes good health than it is likely that it is harmful. May I daresay it is fact? And worse case it may be a bit of both, with a net benefit or detriment to be decided in some distant future when facts are more important than propaganda.

 

[zoiDman]

this is partly my fault as perhaps some do not realize my
views are skewed. i am going to be 60 years old this month.
...

Hey Congratulations on getting to the Big 6 Oh.

I'm only a Hairs Breath behind you. But I seldom tell me True Age. Not Sure why, and it Can't be from Clean Living, but I can somehow pass for Early Fifties with Most People.

So that is what I tell them.

LOL

 

[DC2]

I have never called anyone here an ANTZ, and I don't like it when others do.
But I'm also not sure it happens as much as some seem to think.

I did once tell a guy that he was using ANTZ tactics.
That was when he told me I'm an addict and my opinion doesn't mean anything.

But saying he was using ANTZ tactics is not the same as calling him an ANTZ.

Granted, a lot of people don't seem to be able to tell the difference.
Which is why I don't like it being done here.

Even though I did it once myself.

 

[DC2]

So... it seems to me, objectively reviewing the FACTS we know, that it is far more likely that vaping is healthy and promotes good health than it is likely that it is harmful.

If you were talking about vaping unflavored, I would not hesitate to agree with that.

 

[Alien Traveler]

The act of vaping is a habit, not an addiction.

The pat down | E-Cigarette Forum
how many mods/tanks do you carry | E-Cigarette Forum
etc.

 

[zoiDman]

If you were talking about vaping unflavored, I would not hesitate to agree with that.

Removing the Flavorings, Artificial Sweeteners and Colorants does great Simplify things, Doesn't it.

But I wonder How Many Vapers use Unflavored regularly? <10%

 

[VNeil]

OK...

But here is the Deal. I am a Big Believer in Adults making Informed Decisions about what they Choose to put in their Body.

If a Person asked a Question about Nicotine "Addiction" ( or Dependency or Habitual Habit or Ritualistic Acts or Whatever a person wants to call it ) and the Discussion degrades to "Your Opinion is just the Product of ANTZ Propaganda", then you can't have much of a Discussion.

Or if a Thread is Started about Diacetyl and or Acetyl Propionyl, and one side says... "This is just what the ANTZ want you to Think", can much information be Presented?

Or if a Person wants to Talk about Potential Risks in e-Cigarette use, and someone post... "That's how ANTZ Think. I bet you are in Favor of Deeming.", how does this make the e-Cigarette Community Better?

Falling back on Everything is ANTZ Propaganda or an ANTZ View seems to just be a Cop Out. And something some Members like to use to Try and Discredit an Individual to somehow Bolster their own Position.

Calling people ANTZ or Implying that they do not have Enough Free will to do their Own Research, and Reach their Own Informed Decisions does Nothing but Stifle the Free Exchange of Opinions and Individual Views.

I'm not trying to Single you Out. And I'm not saying that your Opinion of ANTZ Propaganda hasn't had a Great Effect on the Uninformed General Public. I just don't think that Argument is as Valid here inside this Forum where Just About Everyone has seen the Benefits of Using an e-Cigarette.

The ECF is a Great place where people can Come to Glean Information and Hopefully make a More Informed Choice about e-Cigarettes. And they do so by Hearing many Different Views of Varying Degrees.

I never called anyone ANTZ here. I merely pointed out that even the truly devout are significantly affected by the propaganda that they decry.

I'm not trying to stifle debate, just trying to get people to think hard about the true source and basis of their opinions. And to be careful how they state opinions. And certainly to refrain stating opinions as fact, something I see all the time. And I am not pointing at you. I just responded to a post here where someone claimed, with certainty, that nicotine is very hazardous to your health. I challenged him to cite links. He has not responded. That was just a more egregious example. As I keep trying to explain, the propaganda *is* woven into most of the discussion here, to some degree.

I've read previously in this forum something to the effect "If we do not acknowledge that there is some harm in vaping then we are just not credible to the opposition". Well, to me, that is total capitulation to the opposition. IOW we must repeat some form of FUD to be credible. Obviously I don't agree with that idea.

Nor do I think it would be valid to say "Vaping is perfectly safe". That is equally invalid. There is a middle ground that few are willing to take, even though it perfectly fits the facts...that there is "no known significant harm" and leave it at that. Why is that so difficult?

 

[suprtrkr]

Hadn't thought about it, but it may be. Certainly I use less now.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I've read previously in this forum something to the effect "If we do not acknowledge that there is some harm in vaping then we are just not credible to the opposition". Well, to me, that is total capitulation to the opposition.

So, we should lie, aren't we?

 

[AXIOM_1]

Removing the Flavorings, Artificial Sweeteners and Colorants does great Simplify things, Doesn't it.

But I wonder How Many Vapers use Unflavored regularly? <10%

I have just recently started making my mixes unflavored.... It's not as bad as I thought it would be.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Nor do I think it would be valid to say "Vaping is perfectly safe". That is equally invalid. There is a middle ground that few are willing to take, even though it perfectly fits the facts...that there is "no known significant harm" and leave it at that. Why is that so difficult?

Then if you believe that it is Not Valid to say that "Vaping is perfectly safe", why would you have a Problem if some refers to Vaping as "Harm Reduction" over Smoking?

 

[stevegmu]

I never called anyone ANTZ here. I merely pointed out that even the truly devout are significantly affected by the propaganda that they decry.

I'm not trying to stifle debate, just trying to get people to think hard about the true source and basis of their opinions. And to be careful how they state opinions. And certainly to refrain stating opinions as fact, something I see all the time. And I am not pointing at you. I just responded to a post here where someone claimed, with certainty, that nicotine is very hazardous to your health. I challenged him to cite links. He has not responded. That was just a more egregious example. As I keep trying to explain, the propaganda *is* woven into most of the discussion here, to some degree.

I've read previously in this forum something to the effect "If we do not acknowledge that there is some harm in vaping then we are just not credible to the opposition". Well, to me, that is total capitulation to the opposition. IOW we must repeat some form of FUD to be credible. Obviously I don't agree with that idea.

Nor do I think it would be valid to say "Vaping is perfectly safe". That is equally invalid. There is a middle ground that few are willing to take, even though it perfectly fits the facts...that there is "no known significant harm" and leave it at that. Why is that so difficult?

You seem to think it is the media and propaganda affecting how vapers think. The reality it is common sense and independent thought for most, I believe...