Now they are talking about banning refillable systems.

[BigPappa]

At first I was not too concerned about a flavor ban because my wife and I use no flavoring and I mix my own... But now Romney and some dude named Jeff have a bill on the floor that includes banning refillable cartridges. That scared the holy bejesus out of me. It sounds like they want all e-cigs to be like the "Mojo" (a disposable closed system).

The frustrating part about this current situation is that all of this seems to have started from some black market THC cartridges, which has absolutely nothing to do with vaping. PG is used in children's asthma medication and nicotine is really not much more dangerous than caffeine, but everyone out there thinks that e-cigarettes are killing people.

I think our first mistake was calling them "e-cigarettes" instead of something like "nicotine delivery device"... The name "e-cigarettes" just causes those that are clueless group them in the same category as cigarettes. Big Tobacco and Big Pharma are probably loving this right now. Smoking kills 450-500k people per year, as far as I know vaping has killed 0, but sure, go ahead and put severe restrictions on vaping. I know it saved my life, 12 years ago I could not manage walking up a flight of stairs, every time I laughed it ended in a coughing fit. Then e-cigs came along and all of that changed.

I wish there was some way to educate the public, especially our government officials.

 

[440BB]

Welcome to ECF BigPappa! Good to see that ecigs saved you like they did me. Our opponents have succeeded in convincing most of the public that the lifesaver we use is harmful, after years of lies.

Sadly, the flavor bans and congress antics are just window dressing for the final blow. The FDA has now released detailed requirements for approval of all ecig products for retail sale in the US and they are obviously only going to approve a closed pod integrated system, nothing else. They estimate they will only get about 24 applications and given the ridiculous requirements and cost to even apply, few will.

May 12, 2020 is when most of what we use will be illegal to sell in the US. Overseas orders may get through but it's going to be a crap shoot. Time to stock up nicotine and hardware that you like!

 

[Rossum]

At first I was not too concerned about a flavor ban because my wife and I use no flavoring and I mix my own...

Many of use here aren't concerned about any of this on a personal level because we've seen the writing on the wall for a lot of years. We didn't know exactly when it would hit, but we got ourselves ready for it with plenty of nic base in the freezer, hardware that uses replaceable batteries, and rebuildable atomizers. PG, VG, food flavorings, and 18650 or 21700 batteries will be available because the have so many other uses. So we'll just keep vaping in whatever style we're used to.

The concern is for the rest of the vapers out there, both the current ones who had no clue what was coming, and the smokers who haven't made the switch yet but might wish to at some point in the future. They're gonna be stuck with whatever crappy, nonrefillable, tobacco flavored things the various laws and regulations allow to remain on the market. Using them will almost certainly cost as much or more than smoking. Once the market is cleared of all the non-approved stuff, you can be sure they'll tax whatever is left at a level comparable to cigarettes. This means that at least some current vapers will return to smoking, and some smokers who would (in a free market) have switched won't. Bottom line: They're throwing a lot of adults under the bus in order to "save the children".

Now that might be a rational thing to do if the thing that they're saving the children from was as harmful as smoking, but it's obviously not. Kids who pick up a nicotine vaping habit might very well continue that habit for a very long time, but in a free and open market, there's very little chance they'd switch from vaping to smoking. Smoking costs more, and tastes like poop compared to vaping, so why would they?

 

[sonicbomb]

It's all about the money. The politicians attacking vaping are merely doing their pay-masters bidding.

 

[Opinionated]

Welcome to ECF..

 

[Jman8]

I wish there was some way to educate the public, especially our government officials.

The education right now is there. But it goes two ways, and ANTZ is king of fake news. Latest example, "it might be vaping nicotine that is causing so many recent deaths from vaping. Still a mystery to everyone as to why this occurred." All of that is a lie (fake) and politically aware vapers know it, and I'm sure ANTZ knows it, but figures who cares, we can capitalize on this as a means toward our goal.

And their goal will be met with failure via an underground (black) market. Education will still occur there. It won't be 'dark, or hidden.' Maybe 50 years ago that would've been the case. Here in the information age, with social media, it'll be front and center. So, some incident will happen, ANTZ will spin it as "nicotine vaping is possibly the cause here, which is why it was right to ban the refillable systems." We'll be privy to same info, and we'll get to the truth of what happened. Which will likely always be lack of standards/ethics by some who operate in the underground market. We'll share that news with whomever cares to listen. Science will back us up. And yet again, ANTZ will fail.

Get enough failures of sharing inaccurate information during prohibition, and eventually government officials will come around. Realizing they sided with the evil doers who are no longer trustworthy.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I wish there was some way to educate the public, especially our government officials.

There is a way, the knowledge is out there but the public and the government are willing to slip through life utterly unscathed by knowledge.

 

[CMD-Ky]

....

 

[stols001]

especially our government officials.

I am sorry but you are a FOOL if you think they do not already know these facts. They know them just fine. Educating the public would be a better bet, because THEY are the ones being fooled, by the media, who is in cahoots with the lobbyists and the politicians.

The only way to make a politician have interest is to be a registered voter and to CALL and identify yourself and state you will never, ever, ever vote for said politician again and you are in the process of convincing all your friends.

So do THAT instead.

Anna

 

[bombastinator]

Welcome to ECF BigPappa! Good to see that ecigs saved you like they did me. Our opponents have succeeded in convincing most of the public that the lifesaver we use is harmful, after years of lies.

Sadly, the flavor bans and congress antics are just window dressing for the final blow. The FDA has now released detailed requirements for approval of all ecig products for retail sale in the US and they are obviously only going to approve a closed pod integrated system, nothing else. They estimate they will only get about 24 applications and given the ridiculous requirements and cost to even apply, few will.

May 12, 2020 is when most of what we use will be illegal to sell in the US. Overseas orders may get through but it's going to be a crap shoot. Time to stock up nicotine and hardware that you like!

Got a link for that FDA stuff? Particularly the low application number, the pricing and the whole non-refillable system thing?

 

[Don29palms]

I always find it interesting when someone says "I don't care if they ban (fill in the blank) I don't use (fill in the blank) It doesn't affect me." The truth is yes it does affect you. Anytime your freedom is limited by a government that thinks they know what is best for you in any way affects all of us. I don't use pod systems and as of right now I have no interest in them. If pod systems are banned it still affects me because that means my choice has been limited. Choice needs to be defended whether it directly affects you or not because once the choices that don't affect you are eliminated then the choices that do affect you will be eliminated too.

 

[CMD-Ky]

...

 

[BigPappa]

I am sorry but you are a FOOL if you think they do not already know these facts.

Oh, I am certain that many, if not most, are fully aware and are just capitalizing on the manipulating the situation, no doubt with Big Tobacco and Big Pharma lining their pockets.

 

[BigPappa]

I always find it interesting when someone says "I don't care if they ban (fill in the blank) I don't use (fill in the blank) It doesn't affect me." The truth is yes it does affect you. Anytime your freedom is limited by a government that thinks they know what is best for you in any way affects all of us. I don't use pod systems and as of right now I have no interest in them. If pod systems are banned it still affects me because that means my choice has been limited. Choice needs to be defended whether it directly affects you or not because once the choices that don't affect you are eliminated then the choices that do affect you will be eliminated too.

You took that TOTALLY wrong.... lol What I was referring to was that I was not too concerned with my inventory lmao (I always have 2 years of hardware and liquid on hand). I did not feel the need to rush out and start stockpiling 5-10 years of product.

I was EXTREMELY upset about the flavor ban, every single person that I know that vapes uses flavors with the exception of my wife and I. I was also saddened for the smokers that have not yet switched over that would be affected by this.

 

[Myrany]

Having read the deeming when it came out in 2016 and now the changes. I really think ONLY a totally closed system can get past the FDA. From what I understand the costs to pull that off even from just the lab time (I remember seeing videos of lawyers (CASAA Maybe? VTA?) discussing what it would cost in 2016 it was estimated back then to be at a minimum 1 million a skew. That costs cannot have gone down in the last few years.

I can't think of too many companys that could afford to even try outside of BT, BP and maybe a couple of China based companys.

 

[CMD-Ky]

You took that TOTALLY wrong.... lol What I was referring to was that I was not too concerned with my inventory lmao (I always have 2 years of hardware and liquid on hand). I did not feel the need to rush out and start stockpiling.

I was EXTREMELY upset about the flavor ban, every single person that I know that vapes uses flavors with the exception of my wife and I. I was also saddened for the smokers that have not yet switched over that would be affected by this.

I am guilty too. Sorry, BigPappa, I'm deleting my posts.

 

[Don29palms]

You took that TOTALLY wrong.... lol What I was referring to was that I was not too concerned with my inventory lmao (I always have 2 years of hardware and liquid on hand). I did not feel the need to rush out and start stockpiling 5-10 years of product.

I was EXTREMELY upset about the flavor ban, every single person that I know that vapes uses flavors with the exception of my wife and I. I was also saddened for the smokers that have not yet switched over that would be affected by this.

I didn't take anything wrong. I wasn't particularly responding to you directly. My point wasn't even just about vaping. The more we give up the more they take and they will keep taking until it's gone.

 

[bombastinator]

I always find it interesting when someone says "I don't care if they ban (fill in the blank) I don't use (fill in the blank) It doesn't affect me." The truth is yes it does affect you. Anytime your freedom is limited by a government that thinks they know what is best for you in any way affects all of us. I don't use pod systems and as of right now I have no interest in them. If pod systems are banned it still affects me because that means my choice has been limited. Choice needs to be defended whether it directly affects you or not because once the choices that don't affect you are eliminated then the choices that do affect you will be eliminated too.

It sounds according to a poster below that they’re going to ban everything BUT pod systems. Which may explain why all we’ve been seeing from manufacturers IS pod systems lately.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Many of use here aren't concerned about any of this on a personal level because we've seen the writing on the wall for a lot of years. We didn't know exactly when it would hit, but we got ourselves ready for it with plenty of nic base in the freezer, hardware that uses replaceable batteries, and rebuildable atomizers. PG, VG, food flavorings, and 18650 or 21700 batteries will be available because the have so many other uses. So we'll just keep vaping in whatever style we're used to.

The concern is for the rest of the vapers out there, both the current ones who had no clue what was coming, and the smokers who haven't made the switch yet but might wish to at some point in the future. They're gonna be stuck with whatever crappy, nonrefillable, tobacco flavored things the various laws and regulations allow to remain on the market. Using them will almost certainly cost as much or more than smoking. Once the market is cleared of all the non-approved stuff, you can be sure they'll tax whatever is left at a level comparable to cigarettes. This means that at least some current vapers will return to smoking, and some smokers who would (in a free market) have switched won't. Bottom line: They're throwing a lot of adults under the bus in order to "save the children".

Now that might be a rational thing to do if the thing that they're saving the children from was as harmful as smoking, but it's obviously not. Kids who pick up a nicotine vaping habit might very well continue that habit for a very long time, but in a free and open market, there's very little chance they'd switch from vaping to smoking. Smoking costs more, and tastes like poop compared to vaping, so why would they?

Excellent post. I couldn't agree more fully. I haven't posted here for several years because, like you, I saw what was coming and eventually realized no logic, reason, science or power on Earth would stop it. Hanging around this forum became depressing. Today I read posts by people who own one or more vape shops and whose livelihoods depend primarily on flavored e-juice. What a shame.

 

[bombastinator]

Having read the deeming when it came out in 2016 and now the changes. I really think ONLY a totally closed system can get past the FDA.

curious as to the details on that one

From what I understand the costs to pull that off even from just the lab time (I remember seeing videos of lawyers (CASAA Maybe? VTA?) discussing what it would cost in 2016 it was estimated back then to be at a minimum 1 million a skew. That costs cannot have gone down in the last few years.

that number doesn’t sound impossible at all. How did the numbers turn out for the deeming as far as projections vs actuality went?

I can't think of too many companys that could afford to even try outside of BT, BP and maybe a couple of China based companys.

BT doesn’t actually make anything. All they’ve done is buy out of date systems from other manufacturers and make them in China to begin with.
As for “a couple of Chinese companies” I suspect the numbers will be surprisingly high there. A million dollars isn’t much for a lot of companies. It will cut out the bottom end though.