Serious warning! Deadly juice!

[jayvolt]

This is a can of worms i really don't want to open. Besides it is up to the manufacturer to worry about that not us. I would like to think that we are at least of average intelligence, smart enough to know what to and what not to do.

If you or anyone else feels that the manufacturer needs to do these things please email them. Thus far though I have a feeling that we are headed down a non constructive road.

 

[Lab]

yes i hope that no one is going to try anything like that.. just that it can happen and a thing like that can cause a lot more problems down the line.. that simple labeling can prevent..

as far as the kids go that is parents choice same with pets.. say what you like around them if they are taught its not the kind of juice to drink..

mcdonalds warns about the hot coffee to protect the stupid and themselves.

 

[Old Chemist]

If you or anyone else feels that the manufacturer needs to do these things please email them. Thus far though I have a feeling that we are headed down a non constructive road.

Jeez - I didn't say anything about the manufacturer! I was referring to the language used in personal contacts.

 

[jayvolt]

that was a little side bar chem. thats why i think we stopped the conversation there. I agree that people need to watch how they say things, my issue was more about the title of the thread. Hysteria is easy to start. You have a valid point that should in the least be acknowledged. That does not mean people are gonna start doing it per se, but at least the idea is out there.

Sorry for going off topic there.

 

[Schizoid]

I think if the child is smart enough to read the label they would be smart enough to listen to their parent's warnings to not drink it. I think pictures on the label of fruits or treats may be more dangerous. Either way, I agree keeping your juice in a safe place is smart.

 

[davelog]

yes i hope that no one is going to try anything like that.. just that it can happen and a thing like that can cause a lot more problems down the line.. that simple labeling can prevent..

as far as the kids go that is parents choice same with pets.. say what you like around them if they are taught its not the kind of juice to drink..

mcdonalds warns about the hot coffee to protect the stupid and themselves.

The McDonald's example that always gets trotted out in conversations like this is fallacious - did you actually see the photos of that woman's burns? They were horrific.

Chemist, I'm not looking to pick a fight or compare how much we've endured regarding censorship. I'm going by the classic definition of the word censorship, which is the removal of information deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds. Striking 'juice' from the language of other vapers is exactly that.

As for labels, have you read the rest of the thread? It's part of the conversation.

In any case, peace be with you, I don't think we're going to be changing each other's minds any time soon, so it's not worth getting in a froth over.

 

[GIMike]

I think this all comes back to proper parenting. If you tell the children that it's Mommy/Daddy's juice and it can make them very sick, so sick they may have to go to the doctor (kids usually hate doctors and will do anything to avoid it), then there shouldn't be any issues. But, I'm also a believer in ADD, not all but in most cases, actually stands for "Adult Discipline Disorder". This disorder seems to be running rampant these days and so proper parenting has changed a lot.

 

[Old Chemist]

I'm going by the classic definition of the word censorship, which is the removal of information deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds. Striking 'juice' from the language of other vapers is exactly that.

Single word replaced by other word (synonym) is not removal of information. What's more - replacing a misleading word by other that does not mislead is in fact gaining information.

 

[NCC]

I've read through most of the posts in this thread. I'm 57 years old, am rarely around people under the age of 20 (Chirstmas), and have pretty much called it juice for my entire vaping history. I understand your concern Old Chemist, for people who have children around ..... perhaps. But, that's their call to make. Electricity is often referred to as juice also. Should that be called to question for fear children will start licking wall outlets? There are outlet guards available, and various ways to safeguard children from da juice.

I also agree with the observations made that the actual flavor names would seem more enticing to a young child than juice would.

One of my earliest childhood memories is that of me and my younger sister sharing a bottle of orange flavored aspirin. Vomiting was induced, that trauma is probably why I recall the incident. The point is, if it had been unflavored aspirin I have extreme doubt that either of us would've gone beyond a nibble of aspirin. eLiquid, regardless of the flavoring, tastes a heck of a lot worse than aspirin.

 

[Mr Jones]

i would love to get a bottle with instead of a nice pic of fruit on it.. it have a skull and crossbones..

Dripeez has this warning. Skull & Crossbones image with '18+ Only' text. (dripeez.com)

 

[Lab]

lol i was joking about the skull and crossbones.. just so many only have keep out of reach of children 18+ only..

 

[Bradyo]

I have too say I agree 1000 percent on this one. I have a six year old and would not be able too live with myself if he were too get ahold of my 'juice'. I there therefore will start educating him that this is poison and it can kill or hurt him very badly. I really never gave too much thought too this not that I am careless and leave it out but Kids will be KIDS AND THINGS DO AND WILL HAPPEN. I THANK-YOU very much on this insight and will be very carefull on how I handle this in the future. I also don't want too give big government any more leverage too try and shut this E-CIG AND all the people it has helped DOWN.....

 

[GIMike]

I don't think I would go so far as to call it poison. You might traumatize your kid if he thinks that mommy/daddy is inhaling poison. Or it'll make them think you're just pulling their leg and don't really mean it because it hasn't hurt you so far and would cause the opposite effect of what you're trying to get across to them. I'd say it can hurt them/make them sick, but I dunno if I'd call it poison....

 

[BiffRocko]

I also don't want too give big government any more leverage too try and shut this E-CIG AND all the people it has helped DOWN.....

See this is the problem here. The government's efforts to get rid of e-cigs is not about truth and the danger they pose. Nor is it about protecting children. It about protecting the financial interests of large industries. They will do anything and everything to sway politicians and public opinion to their side. They've already proven they're happy to use a flawed FDA study. The terminology we use is not going to matter. If they want them gone, they will be gone.

 

[FreakyStylie]

I agree with this concept, and have been trying to change my terminology for the past several months. However, the "when in Rome" factor kicks in all the time, and I end up referring to it as juice.

As devil's advocate, I will say that parents should be responsible and keep this stuff out of reach, and educate their children. Children need to be protected from household cleansers in the same way, and these items are pretty much a necessity, but can be locked away, or put out of reach in the same way that our supplies should be. And, just like the billions before them, they will grow up and run into the world of big tobacco, and they will be tempted in even more devious ways than we were. We have the tools to educate them away from smoking, and to alternatives such as vaping.

 

[Zoey]

I think this all comes back to proper parenting. If you tell the children that it's Mommy/Daddy's juice and it can make them very sick, so sick they may have to go to the doctor (kids usually hate doctors and will do anything to avoid it), then there shouldn't be any issues. But, I'm also a believer in ADD, not all but in most cases, actually stands for "Adult Discipline Disorder". This disorder seems to be running rampant these days and so proper parenting has changed a lot.

I agree with you completely. I'm not trying to sound condescending but from my experiences being around lots of people with children, parents don't discipline or inform their kids like they should. A lot of people are too busy, or just simply lack the parenting skills, and im not attacking anyone here this is locally in my neck of the woods, just about on any issue, alcohol or cigs. Its up to the parents of young children to make sure they know that what it is, and its not something they can have, and it will hurt them if they do, when they get older they can make that choice...and keeping it out of their reach in a secure places is also the responsibility. That is how i started smoking when i was 12, i seen my mother doing it, and i had access to her cigs. So history is from there. You can't be careful enough. If one child dies from nicotine poisoning from e-liquid, the parents are going to be absolutely 100% responsible. Just my opinion.

 

[JME]

I think it is time.. to bring out the very large green YUCK FACE stickers... too

I have a 2 year old.. if I called my vape (I call my liquid my "vape stuff" ICKY KAKA OUCHIES YUCK for mama only is added when around my son) juice he'd be all into that stuff.... so I agree with OP about it being a horrible idea to refer to vapes as "juice".

My 2 year old LOVES juice and I could see someone referring to their e-liquid as juice and him thinking it was juice and trying to get it and trying a slug of it or more. I really can see that happening. Maybe people whose kids are grown and do not really remember what it's like with a toddler or who have less adventurous "try everything" toddlers vs my "if it looks yummy or sounds yummy I'm going to try to get that stuff" 2 year old..

And at the people who think they will stop because it tastes bad or burns? Not necessarily.. Kids have been known to drink bleach, to drink drano, to drink all sorts of NASTY tasting cleaners and even things like isopropyl alcohol etc. Why do you think there are case-reports of children dying after drinking such stuff? Because kids don't stop at a lick. They guzzle/down/drink things.

My 2 year old drank half a bottle of dawn dish soap because it was pretty and smelled nice, I think .. I don't imagine it tasted very good.. I imagine my vape tastes much better than that.. actually I know it does... and he was 18 months old and I'm pretty sure in his little brain he thought "maybe the next guzzle with taste better.. it smells nice!" .. He was fine, had a little bit of the poops.. yes I called to make sure I didn't need to take him to the ER or anything. But, that blows the whole "if it tastes nasty they'll stop" thing out of the water, at least for my kid.

I vape no-nic liquid and have for quite a while now.. anyway.... but I still keep it out of his reach or locked up cause I don't want him to get into it.

I can see where the OP is coming from very clearly because I know my kid would totally drink something someone was referring to as "juice" and left it in his reach and turned around/walked away/whatever. Or even if they put it up. He might, in his toddler-esque sneakiness (oh, he drags chairs, watches for the front door to be unlocked and darts out it.. he's a clever little ... pooh!), find a way to get it down. The only solution is, if it has poison, lock it up and make it non-enticing.

Child safe caps? HAHA! He can bite them off! Oh yes. He can.

You cannot train a 2 year old (or 3 or 4) to have willpower against a word like "juice". It's like expecting your even EXCELLENTLY trained dog not to eat the pork chop if you leave the room. It's just not going to happen for like 99% of dogs. They're gonna eat the thing. They don't have the brain capability to have self-restraint like that, not without you staring at them, and in many cases even with you staring at them. So, you have to keep it out of their reach/locked up and simulanteously not make it extra enticing (just incase, you say, forget to close your lock-box all the way or have a brain fart and leave the liquid on the counter for a moment as you turn your back. Or they learn how to climb. Or whatever. I mean, parents are human??). I bet you anything if I called my vape "candy/chocolate/juice" my kid .. rather than just ignoring it as another "icky yucky" .. would be actively trying to get into my e-liquid. And he would likely catch me making a mistake if he was actively trying to.

Be real folks. Words do matter with little kids. I would argue that the sweet names are a bad idea to use around them too.

I have never referred to my e-liquid with the candy names or fruit names for that very reason.

It is always just my "smoke" my "vape stuff.. " "icky kaka ouchies yuck".

Of course, I have a really adventurous/determined toddler. Maybe my views are colored by that. hahaha.

 

[Old Chemist]

Actually the whole thing reads; "Human data: The fatal human dose has been estimated to be about 50 to 60 mg [Lazutka et al. 1969]. [Note: An oral dose of 50 to 60 mg/kg is equivalent to a 70-kg worker being exposed to about 30 to 40 mg/m3 for 30 minutes, assuming a breathing rate of 50 liters per minute and 100% absorption.]" so I believe they are in fact speaking of an oral dose. The animal table listed before this is also all in oral dosages.

Just a short update concerning the source data. I've emailed CDC asking whether there's an error there. It took them two weeks, and today I got an answer from them. Let me quote it:

"Thank you for your inquiry to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC has forwarded your inquiry to our offices at the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) located in Cincinnati, Ohio. NIOSH is an Institute within the CDC and is responsible for conducting research and making recommendations for the prevention of work-related injury and illnesses.

Dr. Scott Dotson, a NIOSH IDLH expert, has provided the following response to your question:

I reviewed the comment regarding the IDLH value for nicotine. Basically, what the question is pointing out in a very indirect way is that there is a typo within the information we provide within the support document. If you calculate internal doses for oral versus inhalation exposures based on the data we provide, the two estimated lethal doses vary greatly (60 vs 3500 mg).

The original statement is, "An oral dose of 50 to 60 mg/kg is equivalent to a 70-kg worker being exposed to about 30 to 40 mg/m3 for 30 minutes, assuming a breathing rate of 50 liters per minute and 100% absorption."

It should be written as, "An oral dose of 50 to 60 mg is equivalent to a 70-kg worker being exposed to about 30 to 40 mg/m3 for 30 minutes, assuming a breathing rate of 50 liters per minute and 100% absorption."

Please note the removal of the "/kg" after 60 in the second sentence. We need to get the web team to make this change for us."

I am quite happy that it will be corrected. Hope it clarifies this abiguity.

Update: the error has been corrected.

 

[GIMike]

You cannot train a 2 year old (or 3 or 4) to have willpower against a word like "juice". It's like expecting your even EXCELLENTLY trained dog not to eat the pork chop if you leave the room......Be real folks. Words do matter with little kids. I would argue that the sweet names are a bad idea to use around them too.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you on this one. Kids can be taught. Maybe not at the age of 2, but they start understanding "NO!" by the time they are 3, and they know what they can and can't do if you teach them properly. A dog may not be smart enough as you say. But I've seen some dogs that were pretty well trained. It all depends on your determination in teaching your kids. Some people don't believe in punishment. Some people believe in letting kids teach themselves. Ok, I think that's a load of manure, and won't comment any further. But yes, those people will need to hide their vaping stuff under lock and key. My siblings and I never had this problem growing up, and neither have our children. So this topic isn't really a discussion. The more you let your children try to "raise themselves" so they can be "independant" (in turn becoming those kids at the store who throw themselves on the floor while screaming....ok...I said I wouldn't go there...), the more child locks and other things you'll need all over your house.

 

[JME]

I've decided to spit the hook =p