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Like I said earlier. This isn't really the right place for this thread, so it's really no wonder that it won't stay on topic or result in much that's productive. Seems like my innocent sobriety comment was all it took for the OUTSIDE crowd to fly off the handle.
And by the way. You've been here since 2010. How is any of this a surprise to you?
We all see it. A few have wasted a post or two to point it out. Bones has actually wasted the most time going above and beyond pointing it out.
It isn't hard to figure out who is going to ramble on post after post debating the meaning of sober with you. The most shocking thing to me isn't that there is always someone willing to engage in your shenanigans... The most shocking thing to me is that you never seem to get tired of it.
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It isn't hard to figure out who is going to ramble on post after post debating the meaning of sober with you. The most shocking thing to me isn't that there is always someone willing to engage in your shenanigans... The most shocking thing to me is that you never seem to get tired of it.
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Backing him up? Come on Surf, you aren't really trying to turn this into a World Against Surf thing here are you? You should know I have no problem pointing something out when I see it and that frankly has little to do with Bones and more about the appropriateness of the conversation in light of OPs thread. If you don't like the message, oh well, I said it because I felt it was necessary. Do what you want to man, but considering how long I've been posting here you should know by now that I take no sides.
Not really, but notice what Wac just posted above.
You may want to try sitting in my seat before becoming too critical. I'm outspoken so I'm a frequent target here. You know that to be a statement of fact. When people think they see a weakness they pile on. That's why I suggested you review the thread. All of this was manufactured by people who became (in my opinion disingenuously) indignant about a simple observation: that "sober vaping" is an oxymoron. How that translates to "Surf is coming unhinged" is a mystery to me.
I would posit that one of the main reasons certain substances hold different statuses within out society is due to the effects they have. For example, take caffeine vs that stuff on that show breaking bad. The effects of both are pretty darn different, thus they hold completely different statuses within our society. Or answer this. If drinking and smoking both negate your sobriety, what would you rather have the driver in the car coming at you from the other side of the street doing? smoking or drinking?
That's the last thing I'm going about this as this thread is making me nervous. I already feel bad for (unknowingly) using trigger language in a thread that's supposed to be about people overcoming addiction.
I also have to say I agree with Infernal, Bones and a few others. You seem a bit more cantankerous than usual Surf. Chill out dude. You know how things are on the island of misfit vapers. You still have elite status in the cartel.
We could give Surf the benefit of the doubt here. First, while the OP meant well, he was unaware that (correct me if I'm wrong) this is specifically a sub for debate. The title of the post brought in others that were like minded to the OP, and many were also unaware of the nature of this sub-forum. Surf, who is accustomed to debate, responded appropriate to the norm of this sub, not realizing that this would be construed as an attack, as was my first response.
This seems to me to be a perfect case of "we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate, seemingly without provocation."
Look at his posts with an open mind, they are simply facts, and if w we can remove our emotion from the topic, an actual and possibly enlightening debate for both sides can evolve...
Sent via the guys that made Star Trek low tech.
That's what I'm seeing and I don't approve... not that that means anything.
I will agree with Surf that this isn't a thread for the Outside!.
My congratulations and encouragement to all who continue to conquer their addictions. Sobriety to the people affected means a hell of a lot more than it does to some us in this little corner of the Internet. I'm sorry I even weighed in on the semantics.
I suggest that we regular posters in the Outside! respect the intent of this thread and allow members to share their experiences without rebuke. That isn't asking much and if it can help even one person, it is worth losing an 'argument'.
My congratulations and encouragement to all who continue to conquer their addictions. Sobriety to the people affected means a hell of a lot more than it does to some us in this little corner of the Internet. I'm sorry I even weighed in on the semantics.
I suggest that we regular posters in the Outside! respect the intent of this thread and allow members to share their experiences without rebuke. That isn't asking much and if it can help even one person, it is worth losing an 'argument'.
...and what am I? Chopped liver?
Spence was ahead of us from the git-go.
..and Zak Rabbit has known this.
Why here?
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I didn't mean it that way, bass. Spence offered some helpful advice and you shared your personal experience. I, on the other hand, jumped into an argument about semantics. Consider it my mea culpa, given the course the thread has taken.
I still vote for respecting the intent of the thread, which you and others have done admirably.
There really doesn't seem to be a place on the forum for the op's intent. Friends of Bill, AA, has a singleness of purpose dealing with alcohol only. While a lot of groups have become more liberal over the years, a lot of closed meeting groups will still promptly invite anyone not addicted to alcohol but other substances to leave and direct them to NA, according to the traditions of AA. Something I've seen happen twice but don't agree with. I've wondered how many death warrants were signed that way. But lack of tolerance seems to run in some places. For many addicted to either, sobriety is a life or death situation rather than an arguement. The obvious purpose of the thread wasn't to discuss substance abuse but rather the lack of it which anyone I know in recovery would call soberiety. And I probably know a lot more than most who have posted. Especially those not in recovery. The op just wanted to have a place that included anybody who wanted or needed to share their sobriety or seek comfort and didn't know where else to put it.
Rants, hot debates, controversial subjects and any iffy material go here please. But remember: no direct insults.....no racist / bigot remarks.....no anti- any particular religion.....and NO foul language / 4-letter words
Reading what the forum Admin wrote above I'm not as sure as some of you it doesn't belong in the OUTSIDE.
Road to Recovery 8/13/89 XXIV
Chuck S.
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As long as you're OK with the course of things so far....that's probably the way it's going to be for as long as it lasts.
Still, breaking the status quo at Friends of Bill makes a whole lot more sense than it does trying it here. I'm suspicious about why that route wasn't taken. Somebody either here or there isn't getting with the spirit of recovery. Are recovery groups really that territorial and catty?
We certainly are here... and worse!
It seems like Mennonites squatting in the middle of Las Vegas to me. There might be some amusing commonalities but more so the likelihood of distraction of purpose.
Let's see how it goes...
When do we get to discuss the part about the "Higher Power"?
That's always a favorite around here.
I don't want to lead off....
That's not a discussion I want to have with somebody in recovery working the program.
It will get discussed here sooner than later.
Still, breaking the status quo at Friends of Bill makes a whole lot more sense than it does trying it here. I'm suspicious about why that route wasn't taken. Somebody either here or there isn't getting with the spirit of recovery. Are recovery groups really that territorial and catty?
We certainly are here... and worse!
It seems like Mennonites squatting in the middle of Las Vegas to me. There might be some amusing commonalities but more so the likelihood of distraction of purpose.
Let's see how it goes...
When do we get to discuss the part about the "Higher Power"?
That's always a favorite around here.
I don't want to lead off....
That's not a discussion I want to have with somebody in recovery working the program.
It will get discussed here sooner than later.
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So there's no mistake, I do hear you.
I sympathize but I still feel this is the wrong place and I'm only barely wondering why ECF can't help.
If the Outside is the best that ECF can offer then I say "welcome" and I suppose by now you appreciate the climate here.
It is what it is but maybe it should be a "sticky" thread. That would help keep it out of the way of the more loose-tongued and opinionated, drive-by, riff-raff like myself.
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Sobriety... it's a tricky business.
Without looking for some textbook definition, I would say that sobriety involves clarity of thought,
rationality, peace, balance, harmony, and functionality... just to name a few characteristics.
Yet we all can probably think of one or two people we know (perhaps the crazy uncle or ex-spouse)
who do not exhibit those characteristics even WITHOUT influence of an additive. Being totally drug
free does not, in itself, define sobriety.
Consider the "dry drunk" who is nearly as much a mess without alcohol as with it. At times more so.
Consider a clinically depressed person who is serotonin-deficient. With proper medication the person
may find peace, balance, clarity, etc. They may achieve better "sobriety" with an SRI that would
otherwise cause a non-serotonin-deficient person to orbit the moon.
Consider the natural manic. They wake up "high" without any external help. Are they "sober" in any
but the purest, clinical sense of the word?
Consider me. I'm more "sober" with nicotine than without, because my mind has adjusted to it. Take
away the nicotine and I get almost as squirly as with some of the other stuff I've tried in the past.
I was tobacco free for about 10 years at one point before starting up again, and I can honestly say
that my sobriety while smoking in "maintenance mode" was no different than without smoking. The
only differences were physical and in my wallet. Switching to e-cigs has virtually eliminated any
difference at all, though I may ultimately taper off completely some day.
Yes. I've been around the block, to the moon and back, and visited the 4th dimension. I have no
desire, thankfully, to return. I'm addicted to nicotine and caffeine now. I've abused alcohol to
levels many alcoholics could not keep up with. I've been addicted to illegal substance to the tune
of $300 per day over the course of 12 months. I've been there.
I have no PhD in Bufology. I'm no expert on mental disorders. I can't name the various components
of the brain's neuron system. But I do know, with certainty and from experience, what NOT to add
to my physical or mental system if I want to be closer to sobriety.
Sobriety means many different things to different people. But if you're NOT sober, you know it.
If you want to quit putting something in your body. Quit. I did. Sorry, though. I'm not going to share
my story here. That's just to say YOU can do it, too. It's not easy, but it's worth it.
Peace.
Without looking for some textbook definition, I would say that sobriety involves clarity of thought,
rationality, peace, balance, harmony, and functionality... just to name a few characteristics.
Yet we all can probably think of one or two people we know (perhaps the crazy uncle or ex-spouse)
who do not exhibit those characteristics even WITHOUT influence of an additive. Being totally drug
free does not, in itself, define sobriety.
Consider the "dry drunk" who is nearly as much a mess without alcohol as with it. At times more so.
Consider a clinically depressed person who is serotonin-deficient. With proper medication the person
may find peace, balance, clarity, etc. They may achieve better "sobriety" with an SRI that would
otherwise cause a non-serotonin-deficient person to orbit the moon.
Consider the natural manic. They wake up "high" without any external help. Are they "sober" in any
but the purest, clinical sense of the word?
Consider me. I'm more "sober" with nicotine than without, because my mind has adjusted to it. Take
away the nicotine and I get almost as squirly as with some of the other stuff I've tried in the past.
I was tobacco free for about 10 years at one point before starting up again, and I can honestly say
that my sobriety while smoking in "maintenance mode" was no different than without smoking. The
only differences were physical and in my wallet. Switching to e-cigs has virtually eliminated any
difference at all, though I may ultimately taper off completely some day.
Yes. I've been around the block, to the moon and back, and visited the 4th dimension. I have no
desire, thankfully, to return. I'm addicted to nicotine and caffeine now. I've abused alcohol to
levels many alcoholics could not keep up with. I've been addicted to illegal substance to the tune
of $300 per day over the course of 12 months. I've been there.
I have no PhD in Bufology. I'm no expert on mental disorders. I can't name the various components
of the brain's neuron system. But I do know, with certainty and from experience, what NOT to add
to my physical or mental system if I want to be closer to sobriety.
Sobriety means many different things to different people. But if you're NOT sober, you know it.
If you want to quit putting something in your body. Quit. I did. Sorry, though. I'm not going to share
my story here. That's just to say YOU can do it, too. It's not easy, but it's worth it.
Peace.
Recently formed ECF social group: Clean & Sober Vapers.
It is a moderated group which means you need to follow the link above, then find the "Group Tools" and use the drop down menu to join.
I was in a decade long relationship with someone who struggled with addiction and went through the recovery process with her. Both of her parents & both siblings were addicts (sadly, one of her brothers died from an overdose during her recovery). Although we are no longer together, she is still "clean & sober" after 5 years.
Although the Outside is not an inappropriate place for this thread (we have "I got a new dog" & "My life is looking up" threads here as well as more controversial topics), there is a greater tendency to bump into arguments with less support & encouragement than in the social groups dedicated to sobriety.
More info: see post #164
It is a moderated group which means you need to follow the link above, then find the "Group Tools" and use the drop down menu to join.
I was in a decade long relationship with someone who struggled with addiction and went through the recovery process with her. Both of her parents & both siblings were addicts (sadly, one of her brothers died from an overdose during her recovery). Although we are no longer together, she is still "clean & sober" after 5 years.
Although the Outside is not an inappropriate place for this thread (we have "I got a new dog" & "My life is looking up" threads here as well as more controversial topics), there is a greater tendency to bump into arguments with less support & encouragement than in the social groups dedicated to sobriety.
More info: see post #164
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Most excellent avatar dude. A rare shot of Phil playing an SG bass AND smoking a ciggie. Wow.
So, how do you fit alcohol into that theory? It's arguably the most powerful of all the drugs... and it's just as legal as milk.
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